7 ms·

30 year pescetarian here. I mean, mainly vegetarian but some fish every so often. I gave up meat at 17 on the basis of no reason whatsoever, I was just a contr

by dmje 6y ago

30 year pescetarian here. I mean, mainly vegetarian but some fish every so often. I gave up meat at 17 on the basis of no reason whatsoever, I was just a contrary teen who liked giving things up. Down the line a few years I find so many compelling reasons to not eat meat. Each individually may be argued out of the room but collectively it's pretty compelling. Ethically: there's no arguing meat eating is better. None. However well you treat animals you're still ultimately going to kill them. Environmentally: a hundred reasons to choose a plant based diet, all of which have been cycled here a million times so won't go back through it but we all know it's true. Health: again, see pretty much all the research ever. Eating a plant based diet is so much better for weight, health, BMI, etc etc etc Taste: this is the kicker imo. If you'd asked me 15 years ago when the vegetarian alternative was a crappy pasta with tomato sauce, I'd have been more tempted to chomp my way into a steak. Nowadays? There is SO much good vegetarian food. Loads of choice, huge range of flavours and in many places it's the vegetarian food that gets the chef's attention, rather than falling back on the Default Meat. I totally support anyone making whatever decision they like about eating meat, but I'm completely unable to agree that it's a good idea. Cultured meat in this context is a difficult one to parse. For people like me there's literally no point. I'm just not interested in eating steak, whether it's killed or grown. For your hardcore fleshy, a bloody slab of meat is all that's going to satiate them, so it misses that market too. I guess there's maybe a middle ground of people who could be convinced to stop eating killed meat if they see an alternative? It'll be interesting to see where this one goes and how it is marketed...

xupybd 6y ago
Hardcore fleshy here. I have no ethical concern in killing an animal for food. But if someone can lab grow meat that tastes like meat sign me up. My only concerns would be taste, cost and food safety.
- dmje 6y ago
  Out of interest, which would you choose on balance in a scenario in which the lab meat tasted the same, cost the same and came with the same food safety aspects?
  - xupybd 6y ago
    I'd have absolutely no preference. I like the idea of lab grown as it is a promising way to increase our food production. If it costs the same that indicates it's no more efficient than growing animals for food.
eightails 6y ago
I agree with a lot of the points you made, though: > Ethically: there's no arguing meat eating is better. None. However well you treat animals you're still ultimately going to kill them. Ultimately every animal is going to die. If the moral hangup for you is the certainty of death, then wouldn't you consider any form of reproduction immoral? 'However good and rewarding their life may be, children are still going to die eventually, ergo noone should reproduce'. Unless it's the act of killing with the intention to consume that's the issue?
- dmje 6y ago
  I think there's a reductionist angle to your point which just doesn't chime with me. It's a bit like people arguing for anti-natalism. It's interesting, but morally redundant, somehow? The hangup for me isn't the certainty of death ("relax, you're going to die" is a credo I try hard to live by - even though I fail much of the time and worry about death as much as the next person...). It's just something about breeding a thing to kill it. There is also something in there about the distance and hypocrisy of many meat eaters when it comes to facing up to what they are putting in their mouths. The thing you see at a supermarket is a million miles away from a hanging carcass; I know a whole bunch of people who don't even tell their young children that the thing they have on their plate is that thing walking around in the field over there - and that seems to me to also be quite disingenuous. I'm failing to make a good point. But the broader thing for me is as I said - I'm genuinely not a rabid vegetarian (I used to get drunk at uni and sometimes end the night eating kebab along with everyone else...) - is that I'm interested in the combination of reasons which for me have built up into a fairly compelling case over the years. I should say as well - I actually do quite like the taste of meat even though it's been a long, long time - but I have no intention of going back, which is what interests me.
  - eightails 6y ago
    > The hangup for me isn't the certainty of death... It's just something about breeding a thing to kill it. Fair enough. I don't necessarily fully agree with that specific argument but I can certainly understand where you're coming from. It's one of those head vs heart things: the cold hard logic that all other things being equal, a life followed by death is equivalent to any other, vs the vague moral sense that life should have purpose, and the discomfort when that purpose is 'to be foodstuff'. That said, I wasn't really arguing for meat consumption generally, I was more just pointing out -- nitpicking might be another word -- a flaw in OPs justification. I'm in the process of reducing my meat consumption considerably (to 'a couple of times a week') and restricting it to be local and free range. Maybe in a year I'll be full vego, who knows. Interesting point you raise about a willing blindness of some carnivores. I'm not sure I've really encountered the level of denial that you mention myself, possibly because of the semi-rural area I grew up in, but I don't doubt that it exists. Humans are highly skilled at avoiding the uncomfortable and maintaining delusions.
keymone 6y ago
I would contest every point. Ethical: cruelty is bad, so responsible production of meat is preferred but there’s no reason why killing animal for food should be bad, such that same argument can’t be applied to veggie production. Environmental: grass fed meat is very much preferred to monoculturing the crap out of our planet. Animas are part of life cycle of the environment. Health: crappy grains have done way more health damage than crappy meats. Also focusing on meat exclusively, skipping organs is unhealthy. Saturated fats aren’t as bad as you’re told (only in combination with sugars). Red meat doesn’t cause cancer (smoked foods do). Lots of myths around nutrition. Taste: highly subjective.
- dmje 6y ago
  As I said, I'm not even vaguely tense about arguing the point - for me these have all emerged long after I made the decision to be vegetarian. I just don't think you're right :-)
gwn7 6y ago
I think there are problems with your arguments. > Ethically: there's no arguing meat eating is better. None. However well you treat animals you're still ultimately going to kill them. No, there are a lot of arguing about this. There is no ethical consensus on "killing animals" being the "wrong" thing. Hell there is not even consensus on whether an objective ethics is possible. Organisms consume other organisms. This is part of the cycle of life. Declaring this objectively wrong without exceptions just because you feel bad for the poor animals is a weak argument at its best. You can talk about the perils of the modern day animal farming which involves treating animals like vegetables and "growing" them in conditions indistinguishable from torture; but that doesn't have to mean "killing animals" is bad per se. > Environmentally: a hundred reasons to choose a plant based diet, all of which have been cycled here a million times so won't go back through it but we all know it's true. Yes, but there is research supporting that grain and vegetable farming has a lot of problems as well. Farming in scale in general is a problematic thing. Some even go as far as to state that animal farming can be even less harmful environmentally, when done right. What I'm trying to say is that, this claim hasn't been proven yet. If you want to see counter arguments and relevant research, try following a couple of carnivore diet advocates on social media. I don't have any links to share off the top of my head at the moment and I'm sorry about it. But there is no real consensus here, not so easy. > Health: again, see pretty much all the research ever. Eating a plant based diet is so much better for weight, health, BMI, etc etc etc Yes, there are a lot past research about this. But as we can see today there are a lot of problems with those researches as well. A lot of them are being challenged today. Ketogenic and carnivore diets are on the rise and for good reason. USDA's food pyramid is reversed. Fat, eggs and animal protein are no longer the enemy according to many new researches. I suggest you to keep up with the new research as well. > Taste: this is the kicker imo. If you'd asked me 15 years ago when the vegetarian alternative was a crappy pasta with tomato sauce, I'd have been more tempted to chomp my way into a steak. Nowadays? There is SO much good vegetarian food. Loads of choice, huge range of flavours and in many places it's the vegetarian food that gets the chef's attention, rather than falling back on the Default Meat. Yes, this may be the kicker for you. For many, animal based foods are still irreplaceable. Not much point talking about this as it's fairly subjective.
itsoktocry 6y ago
>Health: again, see pretty much all the research ever. Eating a plant based diet is so much better for weight, health, BMI, etc etc etc It took me 5 minutes of Googling to find articles that refute this from all kinds of credible sources. Going vegetarian might be a step up from the average Americans diet, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any research that demonstrates plant-based diets are any better than a balanced diet that includes meat protein.
- dmje 6y ago
  I dunno what Google you're using but it took me half a minute to get to multiple sources suggesting vegetarians are on average healthier, have lower BMI, lower incidents of common cancers and more. Obviously balance probably trumps everything as it always does but there's imo fairly compelling evidence in the non meat direction, on average, for most people. But once again may I stress that for me it's a whole range of factors that make this compelling, not just one.
  - itsoktocry 6y ago
    The fact that you can find studies that say that is a long way away from your claim that all research says that.
- Nkuna 6y ago
  Typical American/prominent meat diet population: Obese, cardiovascular issues, cancers, highly dependent on meds, health outcomes determined by income Most Asian/plant based diet population: quite healthy, live longer, less pill popping and more homeopathic traditional meds. Forget googling studies. Read about the China Study: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study Even without studies, ask yourself why you most likely have a relative or know someone who's died from heart disease or a cancer and that likelihood plummets when looking at those that eat less or no meat? Then look at populations where meat consumption has gone up in the past few decades and certain cancers and cardiovascular diseases have gone up in tandem? Buuuuuut can't let anyone stand in between you and your Whopper®, right?!
awillen 6y ago
"For your hardcore fleshy, a bloody slab of meat is all that's going to satiate them, so it misses that market too." I think you're really painting people who don't follow your thinking with a pretty aggressively negative stereotype here. I love a good steak. The fact that it came from a cow is irrelevant to me - I like it for taste/texture/etc. If you can give me the exact same product from a lab, I'll 100% buy it (especially if it's cheaper). This is how most people are (and not just about meat) - they care about the end product they're consuming, not its origins or how it got to them (otherwise, y'know, we'd be thinking about where our iPhones came from and whatnot). Give them the identical product they have now that's better along some line that matters to them (like cost) and they'll happily switch.
arvinsim 6y ago
I think this is a very privileged view. Most of the world does not have the culture of offering vegetarian/vegan meals. And if they did, living that lifestyle can be prohibitively expensive.
- dmje 6y ago
  Weird, in my experience a vegetable based diet is way cheaper than one which involves meat...
  - arvinsim 6y ago
    Ever wonder why only the well off people can afford the vegetarian/vegan lifestyle?
    - dmje 6y ago
      The evidence for this is where?
mbostleman 6y ago
If ethics are a priority, then how can you be a vegetarian as opposed to a vegan? If as a vegetarian you acknowledge consuming animal products, which ethics are you compromising (just curious).

by dmje 6y ago

xupybd 6y ago

Hardcore fleshy here. I have no ethical concern in killing an animal for food. But if someone can lab grow meat that tastes like meat sign me up. My only concerns would be taste, cost and food safety.

dmje 6y ago
Out of interest, which would you choose on balance in a scenario in which the lab meat tasted the same, cost the same and came with the same food safety aspects?
- xupybd 6y ago
  I'd have absolutely no preference. I like the idea of lab grown as it is a promising way to increase our food production. If it costs the same that indicates it's no more efficient than growing animals for food.

eightails 6y ago

I agree with a lot of the points you made, though: > Ethically: there's no arguing meat eating is better. None. However well you treat animals you're still ultimately going to kill them. Ultimately every animal is going to die. If the moral hangup for you is the certainty of death, then wouldn't you consider any form of reproduction immoral? 'However good and rewarding their life may be, children are still going to die eventually, ergo noone should reproduce'. Unless it's the act of killing with the intention to consume that's the issue?

dmje 6y ago
I think there's a reductionist angle to your point which just doesn't chime with me. It's a bit like people arguing for anti-natalism. It's interesting, but morally redundant, somehow? The hangup for me isn't the certainty of death ("relax, you're going to die" is a credo I try hard to live by - even though I fail much of the time and worry about death as much as the next person...). It's just something about breeding a thing to kill it. There is also something in there about the distance and hypocrisy of many meat eaters when it comes to facing up to what they are putting in their mouths. The thing you see at a supermarket is a million miles away from a hanging carcass; I know a whole bunch of people who don't even tell their young children that the thing they have on their plate is that thing walking around in the field over there - and that seems to me to also be quite disingenuous. I'm failing to make a good point. But the broader thing for me is as I said - I'm genuinely not a rabid vegetarian (I used to get drunk at uni and sometimes end the night eating kebab along with everyone else...) - is that I'm interested in the combination of reasons which for me have built up into a fairly compelling case over the years. I should say as well - I actually do quite like the taste of meat even though it's been a long, long time - but I have no intention of going back, which is what interests me.
- eightails 6y ago
  > The hangup for me isn't the certainty of death... It's just something about breeding a thing to kill it. Fair enough. I don't necessarily fully agree with that specific argument but I can certainly understand where you're coming from. It's one of those head vs heart things: the cold hard logic that all other things being equal, a life followed by death is equivalent to any other, vs the vague moral sense that life should have purpose, and the discomfort when that purpose is 'to be foodstuff'. That said, I wasn't really arguing for meat consumption generally, I was more just pointing out -- nitpicking might be another word -- a flaw in OPs justification. I'm in the process of reducing my meat consumption considerably (to 'a couple of times a week') and restricting it to be local and free range. Maybe in a year I'll be full vego, who knows. Interesting point you raise about a willing blindness of some carnivores. I'm not sure I've really encountered the level of denial that you mention myself, possibly because of the semi-rural area I grew up in, but I don't doubt that it exists. Humans are highly skilled at avoiding the uncomfortable and maintaining delusions.

keymone 6y ago

I would contest every point. Ethical: cruelty is bad, so responsible production of meat is preferred but there’s no reason why killing animal for food should be bad, such that same argument can’t be applied to veggie production. Environmental: grass fed meat is very much preferred to monoculturing the crap out of our planet. Animas are part of life cycle of the environment. Health: crappy grains have done way more health damage than crappy meats. Also focusing on meat exclusively, skipping organs is unhealthy. Saturated fats aren’t as bad as you’re told (only in combination with sugars). Red meat doesn’t cause cancer (smoked foods do). Lots of myths around nutrition. Taste: highly subjective.

dmje 6y ago
As I said, I'm not even vaguely tense about arguing the point - for me these have all emerged long after I made the decision to be vegetarian. I just don't think you're right :-)

gwn7 6y ago

I think there are problems with your arguments. > Ethically: there's no arguing meat eating is better. None. However well you treat animals you're still ultimately going to kill them. No, there are a lot of arguing about this. There is no ethical consensus on "killing animals" being the "wrong" thing. Hell there is not even consensus on whether an objective ethics is possible. Organisms consume other organisms. This is part of the cycle of life. Declaring this objectively wrong without exceptions just because you feel bad for the poor animals is a weak argument at its best. You can talk about the perils of the modern day animal farming which involves treating animals like vegetables and "growing" them in conditions indistinguishable from torture; but that doesn't have to mean "killing animals" is bad per se. > Environmentally: a hundred reasons to choose a plant based diet, all of which have been cycled here a million times so won't go back through it but we all know it's true. Yes, but there is research supporting that grain and vegetable farming has a lot of problems as well. Farming in scale in general is a problematic thing. Some even go as far as to state that animal farming can be even less harmful environmentally, when done right. What I'm trying to say is that, this claim hasn't been proven yet. If you want to see counter arguments and relevant research, try following a couple of carnivore diet advocates on social media. I don't have any links to share off the top of my head at the moment and I'm sorry about it. But there is no real consensus here, not so easy. > Health: again, see pretty much all the research ever. Eating a plant based diet is so much better for weight, health, BMI, etc etc etc Yes, there are a lot past research about this. But as we can see today there are a lot of problems with those researches as well. A lot of them are being challenged today. Ketogenic and carnivore diets are on the rise and for good reason. USDA's food pyramid is reversed. Fat, eggs and animal protein are no longer the enemy according to many new researches. I suggest you to keep up with the new research as well. > Taste: this is the kicker imo. If you'd asked me 15 years ago when the vegetarian alternative was a crappy pasta with tomato sauce, I'd have been more tempted to chomp my way into a steak. Nowadays? There is SO much good vegetarian food. Loads of choice, huge range of flavours and in many places it's the vegetarian food that gets the chef's attention, rather than falling back on the Default Meat. Yes, this may be the kicker for you. For many, animal based foods are still irreplaceable. Not much point talking about this as it's fairly subjective.

itsoktocry 6y ago

>Health: again, see pretty much all the research ever. Eating a plant based diet is so much better for weight, health, BMI, etc etc etc It took me 5 minutes of Googling to find articles that refute this from all kinds of credible sources. Going vegetarian might be a step up from the average Americans diet, but I think you'd be hard pressed to find any research that demonstrates plant-based diets are any better than a balanced diet that includes meat protein.

dmje 6y ago
I dunno what Google you're using but it took me half a minute to get to multiple sources suggesting vegetarians are on average healthier, have lower BMI, lower incidents of common cancers and more. Obviously balance probably trumps everything as it always does but there's imo fairly compelling evidence in the non meat direction, on average, for most people. But once again may I stress that for me it's a whole range of factors that make this compelling, not just one.
- itsoktocry 6y ago
  The fact that you can find studies that say that is a long way away from your claim that all research says that.
Nkuna 6y ago
Typical American/prominent meat diet population: Obese, cardiovascular issues, cancers, highly dependent on meds, health outcomes determined by income Most Asian/plant based diet population: quite healthy, live longer, less pill popping and more homeopathic traditional meds. Forget googling studies. Read about the China Study: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study Even without studies, ask yourself why you most likely have a relative or know someone who's died from heart disease or a cancer and that likelihood plummets when looking at those that eat less or no meat? Then look at populations where meat consumption has gone up in the past few decades and certain cancers and cardiovascular diseases have gone up in tandem? Buuuuuut can't let anyone stand in between you and your Whopper®, right?!

awillen 6y ago

"For your hardcore fleshy, a bloody slab of meat is all that's going to satiate them, so it misses that market too." I think you're really painting people who don't follow your thinking with a pretty aggressively negative stereotype here. I love a good steak. The fact that it came from a cow is irrelevant to me - I like it for taste/texture/etc. If you can give me the exact same product from a lab, I'll 100% buy it (especially if it's cheaper). This is how most people are (and not just about meat) - they care about the end product they're consuming, not its origins or how it got to them (otherwise, y'know, we'd be thinking about where our iPhones came from and whatnot). Give them the identical product they have now that's better along some line that matters to them (like cost) and they'll happily switch.

arvinsim 6y ago

I think this is a very privileged view. Most of the world does not have the culture of offering vegetarian/vegan meals. And if they did, living that lifestyle can be prohibitively expensive.

dmje 6y ago
Weird, in my experience a vegetable based diet is way cheaper than one which involves meat...
- arvinsim 6y ago
  Ever wonder why only the well off people can afford the vegetarian/vegan lifestyle?
  - dmje 6y ago
    The evidence for this is where?

mbostleman 6y ago

If ethics are a priority, then how can you be a vegetarian as opposed to a vegan? If as a vegetarian you acknowledge consuming animal products, which ethics are you compromising (just curious).