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As an ethical vegetarian for the past five years, I've very interested in cultured (lab-grown) meat technology[1]. FWIW, I'm very happy with my diet and probabl

• danieltillett 6y ago
  I am an ethical meat eater. I would rather eat grass fed beef and lamb than see the additional suffering of hundreds/thousands of rodents (let alone the tens of millions of insects) that me adopting a vegetarian diet would induce. Being poisoned or shredded in a harvester is not a cruelty-free way to die. On a more philosophical note, I think it is better to have lived and died than to not have ever existed. Given very few cattle and sheep would be born if it wasn’t for meat/dairy production then a case can be made that meat eating is the more ethical option. I do admit that this view is incompatible with my first opinion as there would be many more animals born if I adopted a vegetarian diet.
  • saila 6y ago
    Massive amounts of grain are fed to livestock, and vast acreage is cleared for grazing livestock. If everyone went vegetarian, I'm fairly certain the amount of crops grown and land we use for agriculture would be significantly less. Turning grain into meat is highly inefficient.
    • wolco2 6y ago
      Why does everyone have to become vegetarian? When everyone stops eating meat and turns to "healthy" meals like corn based vegetarian burgers I think we are all worse off. Variety, locally grown produce, locally raised animals is the best way to keep diversity and quality. The vegetarian food available now is good because it's not as mass produced.
      • rhn_mk1 6y ago
        The point of ethical vegetarianism is not keeping diversity and quality of foods, it's preventing bad life of animals. It's also not the point of ecological vegetarianism: it's preserving the diversity of natural ecosystems, as opposed to food farms.
        • danieltillett 6y ago
          Grass fed cattle and sheep have a pretty good life. What you are arguing against is intensive feedlots.
          • rhn_mk1 6y ago
            There's a third aspect to that. Or maybe it's another ecology problem. While I don't have the numbers, I strongly suspect there's not enough grass to feed all the humans the amount of meat they would like to eat right now. At least based on observing the prices of intensive vs grass fed, or watching the numbers for intensive production alone. So if we want grass fed as the new normal, we're either going to have to intensify it back again, or we'll end up eating respectively less meat. That's near-vegetarianism or bust.
            • danieltillett 6y ago
              Yes this is true - there is not enough grasslands to feed the current demand for meat - actually there is not enough feedlots to feed the demand for meat on a global scale. Many poor people around the world would eat more meat if it was cheaper. The solutions to let the market solve the problem - if there was only grass fed meat available the cost would be very high and meat would become a luxury again.
        • jkmcf 6y ago
          What do you think happens to all the animals no longer used as a food source in a capitalistic society?
          • 6y ago
    • danieltillett 6y ago
      I see you missed my point about grass fed.
  • corobo 6y ago
    You're allowed to just say you like eating meat mate, haha
    • danieltillett 6y ago
      I certainly do like eating meat and I don’t think there is any ethical problem with eating meat. The problem with trying to use ethics to justify a position is there is little agreement on what is ethical or not.
      • xupybd 6y ago
        Some people are not comfortable killing an animal to eat it. To them it's not an ethical choice. I have no problem killing an animal for food. I also have no problem with someone else finding it unethical. Each person has their own beliefs that govern their ethics. As long as we all find a way to live peacefully together there is nothing wrong with that.
        • danieltillett 6y ago
          I am in 100% agreement with this sentiment, what I am not in agreement with is that vegetarians are somehow more ethical than meat eaters.
  • jimdavenport 6y ago
    This is a new and surprising take.
    • jgwil2 6y ago
      This incredibly stupid take is actually pretty common on HN whenever vegetarianism comes up. I don't know whether they're simply mocking the serious thought many people have put into the ethics of eating animals or what, but it's manifestly false and patently ridiculous to claim that eating plants kills more animals than eating animals.
      • nefitty 6y ago
        Some people have a hard time engaging with ideas that might cast them in a negative, ethical light. I’ve had people abruptly stop me from explaining ethical vegetarianism, even though they initiated the conversation haha
        • danieltillett 6y ago
          Some people don’t think there is any ethical problem with eating meat and rather than get into an argument with a vegetarian prefer to end the conversation. I am not one of these people.
        • minot 6y ago
          On a side note, I never followed the project very closely but I was really hopeful for soylent. What happened? Is the technology just not there? Do we not know enough about human physiology? What is missing to take the soylent idea — which I understood as automate most (boring) meals — and make it a reality? I saw a quora answer which says we simply don’t know enough about the science behind food but to me it implies that maybe some day our knowledge will get there? People laugh but the idea of “bachelor chow” from futurama makes sense to me. I don’t know enough about the topic of ethical vegetarianism to criticize it. I eat meat. In fact, I had fish for dinner last night. I just don’t think about the ethics of it. Now I may sound hypocritical when I say this because I’m against policy action through taxation (make taxes as simple as possible by eliminating all income tax credits and deductions). However, I know I’ll continue to eat meat (including milk, eggs, chicken, pork) unless it is either too impractical or too expensive. I want to believe that if push comes to shove I’ll be able to adjust my eating habits and that my current eating habits are not a part of my identity. I don’t really have a point to make here except that something like soylent would go a long way toward making me vegetarian at least for the meals I eat alone.
  • ivalm 6y ago
    Cattle eat more plant calories than the resultant meat. All those plant calories include the “vegetarian suffering.” Purely grass fed meats with no farming will be too inefficient to provide meat to everyone.
    • danieltillett 6y ago
      Sure meat might become more of a luxury than it is now, but in a calorie to calorie trade off grains have a higher animal kill rate than grass fed meat. I don’t many people are aware how many rodents are killed harvesting and storing grain.
  • trianglem 6y ago
    I like meat too and won’t give it up unless decent lab grown meat comes around but this comment is the most dissembling nonsense I have heard in a while.
    • danieltillett 6y ago
      It is no more nonsense that the OP’s argument. If you do an analysis on animals killed per calorie, grains kill many more animals than say grass fed cattle. I think many people are unaware how many rodents are killed every year growing and harvesting grains. I don’t think this is a very good reason to eat or not eat meat.
      • jgwil2 6y ago
        Citation?
        • danieltillett 6y ago
          https://grdc.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/207321/mousemgtsep1120fact20sheet.pdf https://grdc.com.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0015/207321/mouse...
          • jgwil2 6y ago
            This PDF is a flyer on pest control, presumably targeted at growers of grain. Nowhere does it contain anything resembling the "analysis on animals killed per calorie" you referred to.
  • chrisdirkis 6y ago
    > On a more philosophical note, I think it is better to have lived and died than to not have ever existed. Would that not lead to a desire to create as many "lives" as possible? I don't think I've met many people optimising for that, although I won't rule it out.
    • danieltillett 6y ago
      I would not be surprised if there was some religion out there that espoused such a doctrine, likely one that believed in reincarnation.
• Funes- 6y ago
  I'm interested in cultured meat as well, but also in cultured dairy. I follow an ovolactovegetarian diet, and I exercise heavily six days a week. I find it really difficult to take even the minimum 50 grams of complete (which is crucial) protein just from eggs, dairy, and plant-based foods. Having the chance of eating cruelty-free meat would save me from thinking so much about coming up with ways of fulfilling my nutritional requirements.
• quiescant_dodo 6y ago
  What is an ethical vegetarian and how is it different from veganism? Sorry if I'm misunderstanding.
  • jamil7 6y ago
    People are vegan or vegetarian for various reasons, health, environmental or ethical. An ethical ovo-lacto vegetarian doesn't make much sense to me since the dairy industry is pretty cruel, egg production isn't great either.
    • Veen 6y ago
      I wouldn't call myself an "ethical ovo-lacto vegetarian" because it sounds pompous, but it's basically what I am. My position is that raising and killing animals for meat is unjustifiable by any reasonable ethical or environmental standard. However, it is possible for dairy and egg production to be ethical, even though it often isn't in practice. So, I try to source eggs and milk from producers who minimize suffering. For example, I could get eggs from a local smallholding where I can see for myself that the chickens live fairly good lives.
      • jamil7 6y ago
        I had a similar mindset and was vegetarian for around 7 years. My girlfriend 3 years ago challenged me on some of my thoughts and I bit the bullet and stopped eating all animal products. The transition is a lot easier if you’re already vegetarian and the amount of options around now make it really easy.
      • type0 6y ago
        > I wouldn't call myself an "ethical ovo-lacto vegetarian" because I wouldn't call myself an "pesca-pescatarian" but it sure sounds fun. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC-ZBJ-Kw2E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IC-ZBJ-Kw2E
  • rhn_mk1 6y ago
    Perhaps it's someone who doesn't think in absolutes: sees the value of the ethical argument, but allows that other factors may dominate depending on the circumstances.
• dmje 6y ago
  30 year pescetarian here. I mean, mainly vegetarian but some fish every so often. I gave up meat at 17 on the basis of no reason whatsoever, I was just a contrary teen who liked giving things up. Down the line a few years I find so many compelling reasons to not eat meat. Each individually may be argued out of the room but collectively it's pretty compelling. Ethically: there's no arguing meat eating is better. None. However well you treat animals you're still ultimately going to kill them. Environmentally: a hundred reasons to choose a plant based diet, all of which have been cycled here a million times so won't go back through it but we all know it's true. Health: again, see pretty much all the research ever. Eating a plant based diet is so much better for weight, health, BMI, etc etc etc Taste: this is the kicker imo. If you'd asked me 15 years ago when the vegetarian alternative was a crappy pasta with tomato sauce, I'd have been more tempted to chomp my way into a steak. Nowadays? There is SO much good vegetarian food. Loads of choice, huge range of flavours and in many places it's the vegetarian food that gets the chef's attention, rather than falling back on the Default Meat. I totally support anyone making whatever decision they like about eating meat, but I'm completely unable to agree that it's a good idea. Cultured meat in this context is a difficult one to parse. For people like me there's literally no point. I'm just not interested in eating steak, whether it's killed or grown. For your hardcore fleshy, a bloody slab of meat is all that's going to satiate them, so it misses that market too. I guess there's maybe a middle ground of people who could be convinced to stop eating killed meat if they see an alternative? It'll be interesting to see where this one goes and how it is marketed...
  • xupybd 6y ago
    Hardcore fleshy here. I have no ethical concern in killing an animal for food. But if someone can lab grow meat that tastes like meat sign me up. My only concerns would be taste, cost and food safety.
    • dmje 6y ago
      Out of interest, which would you choose on balance in a scenario in which the lab meat tasted the same, cost the same and came with the same food safety aspects?
• AntiImperialis2 6y ago
  I will never go vegetarian and will never eat fake meat, whether it's fabricated or cultured. I think it's ethical to kill living beings you can get away with. You may choose to limit it to plants. Some of us don't like to put fake limits on to ourselves like that. Even if I took the vegan position to show pretend virtue in front of people I wish to impress or annoy, I would still: - kill an animal to protect my child - pay to abort my unwanted child to protect myself from future obligations as a parent and a partner - kill humans who pose a threat to my life or that of a loved one
  • dang 6y ago
    Could you please stop posting flamebait and ideological battle-style comments to HN? You've done it a lot, and it's not what this site is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html