4 ms·

If native populations are going to come back and be sustainable we have to tear down the damns. I realize that causes other political issues but that's the onl

If native populations are going to come back and be sustainable we have to tear down the damns. I realize that causes other political issues but that's the only way we're going to have native populations. I'm an avid fisherman and really LOVE fish. They're amazing animals. Fisherman have a connection to nature that just can't be appreciated unless you have spent significant time on the water. Fish are SMART, they're capable of amazing things I wouldn't have even considered possible. I once had a large trout swim UP a (short, about 4') waterfall with my lure in his mouth and I could SEE him swimming up it as if it were just normal water. When we let nature die a part of us dies with it..

amscanne 6y ago
Fish are amazing, but do you really think they are SMART? In my experience, fish are incredibly stupid and wholly reliant on instinct. I suppose instincts can seem like intelligence sometimes, but if put into the wrong situation, fish will make the same mistake over and over and over again.
- bb88 6y ago
  By that standard the monarch butterfly is stupid too. That said they are smart enough to follow only a portion of their full migratory route which takes 4 generations to complete. Squirrels remember where they bury their nuts. Octopuses can solve puzzles. So what about fish? Salmon remember where they were spawned before they head out to the ocean, and come back to the exact same pool to spawn before dying. https://blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/02/13/mystery-solved-salmon-navigate-using-magnetic-field/ https://blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/02/13/mystery-solve... So sure, they're not "SMART" but there is a lot of "intelligence" they have acquired over many generations of evolutionary cycles.
  - bombela 6y ago
    Squirrel do not remember much though. They fill the ground with nuts. Then they dig the ground seemingly at random. Most of theis caches are forgotten. Which often leads to nuts trees sprouting all over the place during spring.
    - bb88 6y ago
      https://www.livescience.com/64104-how-do-squirrels-find-buried-nuts.html https://www.livescience.com/64104-how-do-squirrels-find-buri... This article seems to suggest otherwise.
  - BurningFrog 6y ago
    I'll settle this; Salmon, butterflies and squirrels are all dumb as hell. What they are is incredibly well adapted to reproduce and survive on this crazy planet!
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- forgotmypw 6y ago
  People say this about many beings, and even about other humans. What they all have in common is a lack of exposure to those they denigrate and reduce in their mind to dumb automatons. I don't think you are smart to say that about anyone you haven't spent much time around or bonded with in any significant way.
Retric 6y ago
Many large dams play a major role in flood mitigation so removing them can be a significant risk. IMO, traditional fish ladders are often a poor solution as they don’t divert enough water down them, but scale things to 10+% of average flow rates, and dams can coexist with large native fish populations. Notably discharge rates that high significantly reduce the amount of hydropower generated, but don’t need to be maintained year round. However, most small and mid sized dams should be removed as they harm wildlife and are often a safety issue for the general public. PS: In terms of supporting evidence. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925857416305936#bib0215 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092585741...
irrational 6y ago
Honestly, if the choice is removing the dams and moving to more polluting energy forms, or letting the fish go extinct, I think letting the fish go extinct is the best choice at this time. Maybe we freeze their fertilized eggs and reintroduce them at some point in the future when climate change has been reversed.
- wolco2 6y ago
  You realize in 600ad the temp was a 1 hotter than today. There is no maybe we reintroduce at a later time because whatever you think needs to happen with climate change never will. I would rather you pay more and pay the full costs of your electrical use. Use solar, wind or invest in a nuclear plant if removing carbon is imported. Causing extinction in the name of climate change when really it's about cheaper prices is a non-starter.
  - eganist 6y ago
    > You realize in 600ad the temp was a 1 hotter than today. There is no maybe we reintroduce at a later time because whatever you think needs to happen with climate change never will. Interesting. Do you have a source for this?
    - wolco2 6y ago
      https://www.history.org.uk/primary/resource/3865/anglo-saxons-a-brief-history https://www.history.org.uk/primary/resource/3865/anglo-saxon...
      - eganist 6y ago
        Got it. They may have gotten their figures wrong - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period
  - margalabargala 6y ago
    > You realize in 600ad the temp was a 1 hotter than today. No, I've done a fair amount of research into the historical climate of the PNW and I've never heard that before! Do you have any journal articles so I can read more about it?
rhodozelia 6y ago
>“We have to tear down the dams” Surely there must be another possible solution that more Closely mimics the river before the dams were built ?
thaumasiotes 6y ago
> I once had a large trout swim UP a (short, about 4') waterfall with my lure in his mouth and I could SEE him swimming up it as if it were just normal water. This would be much like the scene in The Hobbit with Legolas successfully gaining elevation by climbing up free-falling rubble.

amscanne 6y ago

Fish are amazing, but do you really think they are SMART? In my experience, fish are incredibly stupid and wholly reliant on instinct. I suppose instincts can seem like intelligence sometimes, but if put into the wrong situation, fish will make the same mistake over and over and over again.

bb88 6y ago
By that standard the monarch butterfly is stupid too. That said they are smart enough to follow only a portion of their full migratory route which takes 4 generations to complete. Squirrels remember where they bury their nuts. Octopuses can solve puzzles. So what about fish? Salmon remember where they were spawned before they head out to the ocean, and come back to the exact same pool to spawn before dying. https://blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/02/13/mystery-solved-salmon-navigate-using-magnetic-field/ https://blog.nationalgeographic.org/2013/02/13/mystery-solve... So sure, they're not "SMART" but there is a lot of "intelligence" they have acquired over many generations of evolutionary cycles.
- bombela 6y ago
  Squirrel do not remember much though. They fill the ground with nuts. Then they dig the ground seemingly at random. Most of theis caches are forgotten. Which often leads to nuts trees sprouting all over the place during spring.
  - bb88 6y ago
    https://www.livescience.com/64104-how-do-squirrels-find-buried-nuts.html https://www.livescience.com/64104-how-do-squirrels-find-buri... This article seems to suggest otherwise.
- BurningFrog 6y ago
  I'll settle this; Salmon, butterflies and squirrels are all dumb as hell. What they are is incredibly well adapted to reproduce and survive on this crazy planet!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
forgotmypw 6y ago
People say this about many beings, and even about other humans. What they all have in common is a lack of exposure to those they denigrate and reduce in their mind to dumb automatons. I don't think you are smart to say that about anyone you haven't spent much time around or bonded with in any significant way.

Retric 6y ago

Many large dams play a major role in flood mitigation so removing them can be a significant risk. IMO, traditional fish ladders are often a poor solution as they don’t divert enough water down them, but scale things to 10+% of average flow rates, and dams can coexist with large native fish populations. Notably discharge rates that high significantly reduce the amount of hydropower generated, but don’t need to be maintained year round. However, most small and mid sized dams should be removed as they harm wildlife and are often a safety issue for the general public. PS: In terms of supporting evidence. https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0925857416305936#bib0215 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S092585741...

irrational 6y ago

Honestly, if the choice is removing the dams and moving to more polluting energy forms, or letting the fish go extinct, I think letting the fish go extinct is the best choice at this time. Maybe we freeze their fertilized eggs and reintroduce them at some point in the future when climate change has been reversed.

wolco2 6y ago
You realize in 600ad the temp was a 1 hotter than today. There is no maybe we reintroduce at a later time because whatever you think needs to happen with climate change never will. I would rather you pay more and pay the full costs of your electrical use. Use solar, wind or invest in a nuclear plant if removing carbon is imported. Causing extinction in the name of climate change when really it's about cheaper prices is a non-starter.
- eganist 6y ago
  > You realize in 600ad the temp was a 1 hotter than today. There is no maybe we reintroduce at a later time because whatever you think needs to happen with climate change never will. Interesting. Do you have a source for this?
  - wolco2 6y ago
    https://www.history.org.uk/primary/resource/3865/anglo-saxons-a-brief-history https://www.history.org.uk/primary/resource/3865/anglo-saxon...
    - eganist 6y ago
      Got it. They may have gotten their figures wrong - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_Warm_Period
- margalabargala 6y ago
  > You realize in 600ad the temp was a 1 hotter than today. No, I've done a fair amount of research into the historical climate of the PNW and I've never heard that before! Do you have any journal articles so I can read more about it?

rhodozelia 6y ago

>“We have to tear down the dams” Surely there must be another possible solution that more Closely mimics the river before the dams were built ?

thaumasiotes 6y ago

> I once had a large trout swim UP a (short, about 4') waterfall with my lure in his mouth and I could SEE him swimming up it as if it were just normal water. This would be much like the scene in The Hobbit with Legolas successfully gaining elevation by climbing up free-falling rubble.