8 ms·

This sounds much like astroturfed campaigns typical in authoritarian states once a public figure is deemed the enemy. It's wild how Western reporters take the "

by varjag 6y ago

This sounds much like astroturfed campaigns typical in authoritarian states once a public figure is deemed the enemy. It's wild how Western reporters take the "peoples comments" at face value.

underseacables 6y ago
Western reporters treat China the same way Silicon Valley reporters treat major tech companies. The reporters are afraid of upsetting them out of fear of retribution.
- ngokevin 6y ago
  From what I've seen, all the media (and thus the majority of American people) 100% rag on China any chance they can get. They are public enemy number one, and anti-China sentiments are popular and applauded. I don't remember the last time I've seen positive articles about China.
  - karmasimida 6y ago
    I think China's decision to go carbon neutral by 2060 is somewhat given some positive lights, though with heavy coating of doubt.
    - baud147258 6y ago
      With such a remote target, there will be at least two generations of party leadership in mainland China (assuming the system doesn't change), with different goals and priorities. If they had announced something for within 10-15 years, I would have been more hopeful it's more than a PR attempt
  - underseacables 6y ago
    I don’t remember the last time China did anything that warranted a positive article. That is likely a direct result of the authoritarian control China holds on information. How do you report something positive when you can’t trust the source? At least in America journalists can say whatever they want. In China, they’ll be arrested, disappeared, and who knows what other barbaric acts of punishment. Simply put, by its very nature China instills mistrust, distrust, and critique.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - boomboomsubban 6y ago
      How would you have any idea what China does except through various news articles? Why would an authoritarian control of information lead to only bad information getting out? China does not have a great government, but American coverage of it is also extreme propaganda.
      - cowsandmilk 6y ago
        There is a huge Chinese diaspora in the US with family members who still live in China. They are the source of information that most in the US rely on more than news articles.
      - underseacables 6y ago
        And what is extreme propaganda? Is the Uyghur genocide propaganda? Is the Murder of Tibetans, aggression against Taiwan, imprisonment of journalists, propaganda? Show me American propaganda that does not have a strong correlation of truth, and I’ll show you concentration camps and disappeared citizens. When was the last time the U.S. government put a doctor in prison for trying to warn others about a deadly virus? No matter the corruption of America, its corporatacracy and greed, no matter the propaganda of its politicians, nothing in the developed western world can hold a candle to the CURRENT genocide of China.
        hungryhobo 6y ago
        What if the Uyghur genocide is indeed propaganda? How would you know? A lot of the Uyghur witness have been revealed to have ties to NED and the population of Uyghur minorities in china have increased. If there is an active genocide on the scale that's being reported, why have we not seen reports of mass exodus into neighbouring countries?
        boomboomsubban 6y ago
        >nothing in the developed western world can hold a candle to the CURRENT genocide of China Things that the developed Western world are causing are worse though. The UN had repeatedly called the ongoing Yemen situation the largest ongoing humanitarian crisis, killing over 200,000 people with millions facing starvation. The few mentions this gets generally are only used to demonize Iran when US generals have stated that we could end this war tomorrow if we wanted to. Yet you can claim that nothing the West does can hold a candle to China's acts. That is the aim of the propaganda. Yes, China is committing atrocities. They are not alone in this and the methods suggested to combat these actions are likely going to cause far more suffering.
  - redis_mlc 6y ago
    > They are public enemy number one, and anti-China sentiments are popular and applauded. I don't remember the last time I've seen positive articles about China. China has been in an undeclared war with the US since the 1950s. Xi was dumb enough to reveal that. There's no "positive articles about China" because the CCP is only interested in taking from others - even your organs.
  - alisonatwork 6y ago
    Something changed in the past 5 years or so. For a while, the American tech press was pretty doting on Alibaba and a lot of people in the west still had the hope that China was going to be a great new frontier for western products and cultural exchange, thanks to the booming middle class. A lot of that goodwill started getting frittered away as the CCP were involved with events that appeared to threaten freedom/democracy and autonomy both in the China region and around the rest of the world. Just a few off the top of my head... - 2016 Artificial islands and military bases built in South China Sea - 2017 Four Corners report on CCP influence operations in Australia - 2017 HRW report on Uighur reeducation camps - 2018 Xi Jinping dissolves term limits - 2018 Two Michaels detained - 2019 Hong Kong National Security Law and protests - 2020 Coronavirus - 2020 Ladakh border skirmishes There are lots more examples. Meanwhile, citizen journalists are being disappeared and foreign journalists are getting kicked out of the country, which is only making it more difficult to get independent reporting of what is going on. Personally, I don't think it's so much that there is no positive reporting about China happening in the west any more, it's just that now the more optimistic stuff is balanced out by a more cynical take.
    - underseacables 6y ago
      I wonder if HN is able to identify Chinese state manipulation of the comments here. I’ve never seen so many Sinophile defensive comments before. It’s almost like someone pushed a button and called for backup.
      - ngokevin 6y ago
        Have you been to China, talked to its people often, or do you get most of your sentiments online from other commenters and through news? I'd argue there is US mass media manipulation. There's simply clear monetary (and nationalistic) incentive in riling Americans against an evil enemy. In my eyes, the US paints China as evil just as much as NK paints US as evil. Do you not think it's propaganda that all the news is one sided, have you not considered a scenario where Americans might have been planted a bias by the media? Also, I'd be an effin' amazing impostor to act as a plant as a YC alum on HN with my username orange. Maybe China wired me some money.
- apsec112 6y ago
  A lot of tech company reporters seem to write nothing but negative articles. David Streitfeld, for example, wrote nothing but negative pieces every week or two for years, at least the last time I checked pre-pandemic.
  - underseacables 6y ago
    I contend that it’s well known in the tech community that if you bash Apple, you will not get invited to the next event. If you criticize a tech company as a tech journalist, you’re not going to get invited to the next unveiling, the next product release, and that will have a detrimental impact on your career. Some can ride that line without worry, but rank and file tech reporters DEPEND on access, and will not do anything to disrupt it.
- skybrian 6y ago
  I don't know why you think that given all the negative press that big tech has been getting for at least five years.
- franklampard 6y ago
  That is just factually incorrect. For the recent years, Western reporters trended to report negatively about tech companies and China.
hnracer 6y ago
It's wild and rather irresponsible given the censorship and surveillance that people in China are subjected to.
- underseacables 6y ago
  China is an insecure authoritarian nation that desperately wants to be accepted, and seen as a legitimate, first world superpower. However their actions have made it such that for generations, rational individuals will always second-guess everything they do. “...well yeah but, it’s China!” It’s unfortunate but How often do we see comments like that? China has been such a brutal, oppressive nation that it’s really hard to overlook, and accept at face value anything that comes out of it.
tehjoker 6y ago
tbf this is pretty similar to what the left in the US says about billionaires. I wouldn't completely discount it as state propaganda. In the US, it is incredible how often reporters parrot security state talking points without any research into whether they're accurate, such as how people piled on Russia after the recent hacking scandal without any evidence shown, just a gut insinuation as far as I know. The only advice I can give is: always be skeptical. period.
- varjag 6y ago
  There is a huge difference in freedom of expressing your opinion online between your country and authoritarian states. I know your first instinct would be to say "yes but…", but it's not. Not even close, not even 0.1%. People without first hand experience often do not comprehend it, even if accept the argument logically. But when you live there, you grow up with the 6th sense of political momentum. It's as natural as breathing. You are not starting to shit on a powerful person in your country unless you sense a strong political tailwind.
  - tehjoker 6y ago
    That may be true, but it's important to specify the state as every state is different. A generic authoritarianism isn't helpful to compare to.
karmasimida 6y ago
Both are true. Jack Ma was a governmental sponsored big tech monopoly that hated by many small merchants. Now the government decided to punish Alibaba, so the crowds cheered, for whom the saddest part is the whole thing has little to do with them from start to end
- varjag 6y ago
  Sure. Just that the moment (if) he settles it with CCP under the carpet, all this "grandson Ma" stuff in the comments will stop overnight.
  - karmasimida 6y ago
    FYI, Jack Ma owns Weibo, he can surely make stuff disappear regardless if he sees fit.
konjin 6y ago
Go at a homeless camp in SF and look around for someone who hates Google because their old rent controlled unit got sold. No astroturf needed to find people who hate the rich in a society that punishes the poor.
- varjag 6y ago
  So were these homeless Chinese proletarian people in favor of Ma before? What happened? Why it coincided with his falling out of favor? :)
- tomcam 6y ago
  How do we punish the poor?
justicezyx 6y ago
People's comments are real, and CCP's manipulation, too, is real. Mr. Ma famously claimed that 996 is a blessing of fortune [1], despite the global outcry on 996, Jack was untouched almost entirely in the media and online circle. He probably was deemed a member of the entrepreneur class, which cannot be unethical I guess? Jack said that he is not interested in money on CCTV (the national TV station) [2], a rather hypocritical statement. He claimed that Chinese banking system works as pawnshop, while at the same time his Ant works like "payday loan". He claimed that Chinese financial system is not innovative enough, while Ant is repeating the same gambling practiced 10 years ago. Jack joked that AI is Alibaba Intelligence in front of Elon Musk. Universally ridiculed in China. Jack was a close friend of actress Zhao Wei was caught in camera of close interchanges, (Google 马云赵薇) Mrs Zhao also participate Ant IPO through her mother. She was banned from security market for misconduct [3]. After that, Jack said they were not close at all [4]. There are plenty more. Probably most were censored already. These are just the most brazen ones I suppose. Remember that Chinese were indoctrinated through Communism ideology. Mr. Ma can even appear in public is itself a proof that he is under the protection of CCP while he is still useful. An ordinary citizen, showing these behaviors, would have to worry about their personal safety at all times; and would be mocked everyday online. Not for Mr. Jack Ma though. Now let's see how far CCP wants to expose Mr. Jack Ma to the people's resentment... [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/15/business/jack-ma-996-china/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/15/business/jack-ma-996-china/in... [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oVi5EGbZy1A https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oVi5EGbZy1A [3] http://www.xinhuanet.com/fortune/2018-04/16/c_129851599.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/fortune/2018-04/16/c_129851599.htm https://3g.163.com/dy/article/ED813TL60542805D.html?spss=adap_pc https://3g.163.com/dy/article/ED813TL60542805D.html?spss=ada... [4] https://m.sohu.com/a/209719774_583509/?pvid=000115_3w_a https://m.sohu.com/a/209719774_583509/?pvid=000115_3w_a
- elefanten 6y ago
  Can you elaborate about the "can even appear in public" and "worry about their personal safety" parts of your comment? I'm curious and not sure I understand if I'm taking them correctly. Are you saying that a sufficiently unpopular public figure would have a high likelihood of being physically attacked on the street?

by varjag 6y ago

This sounds much like astroturfed campaigns typical in authoritarian states once a public figure is deemed the enemy. It's wild how Western reporters take the "peoples comments" at face value.

underseacables 6y ago

Western reporters treat China the same way Silicon Valley reporters treat major tech companies. The reporters are afraid of upsetting them out of fear of retribution.

ngokevin 6y ago
From what I've seen, all the media (and thus the majority of American people) 100% rag on China any chance they can get. They are public enemy number one, and anti-China sentiments are popular and applauded. I don't remember the last time I've seen positive articles about China.
- karmasimida 6y ago
  I think China's decision to go carbon neutral by 2060 is somewhat given some positive lights, though with heavy coating of doubt.
  - baud147258 6y ago
    With such a remote target, there will be at least two generations of party leadership in mainland China (assuming the system doesn't change), with different goals and priorities. If they had announced something for within 10-15 years, I would have been more hopeful it's more than a PR attempt
- underseacables 6y ago
  I don’t remember the last time China did anything that warranted a positive article. That is likely a direct result of the authoritarian control China holds on information. How do you report something positive when you can’t trust the source? At least in America journalists can say whatever they want. In China, they’ll be arrested, disappeared, and who knows what other barbaric acts of punishment. Simply put, by its very nature China instills mistrust, distrust, and critique.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - boomboomsubban 6y ago
    How would you have any idea what China does except through various news articles? Why would an authoritarian control of information lead to only bad information getting out? China does not have a great government, but American coverage of it is also extreme propaganda.
    - cowsandmilk 6y ago
      There is a huge Chinese diaspora in the US with family members who still live in China. They are the source of information that most in the US rely on more than news articles.
    - underseacables 6y ago
      And what is extreme propaganda? Is the Uyghur genocide propaganda? Is the Murder of Tibetans, aggression against Taiwan, imprisonment of journalists, propaganda? Show me American propaganda that does not have a strong correlation of truth, and I’ll show you concentration camps and disappeared citizens. When was the last time the U.S. government put a doctor in prison for trying to warn others about a deadly virus? No matter the corruption of America, its corporatacracy and greed, no matter the propaganda of its politicians, nothing in the developed western world can hold a candle to the CURRENT genocide of China.
      - hungryhobo 6y ago
        What if the Uyghur genocide is indeed propaganda? How would you know? A lot of the Uyghur witness have been revealed to have ties to NED and the population of Uyghur minorities in china have increased. If there is an active genocide on the scale that's being reported, why have we not seen reports of mass exodus into neighbouring countries?
      - boomboomsubban 6y ago
        >nothing in the developed western world can hold a candle to the CURRENT genocide of China Things that the developed Western world are causing are worse though. The UN had repeatedly called the ongoing Yemen situation the largest ongoing humanitarian crisis, killing over 200,000 people with millions facing starvation. The few mentions this gets generally are only used to demonize Iran when US generals have stated that we could end this war tomorrow if we wanted to. Yet you can claim that nothing the West does can hold a candle to China's acts. That is the aim of the propaganda. Yes, China is committing atrocities. They are not alone in this and the methods suggested to combat these actions are likely going to cause far more suffering.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > They are public enemy number one, and anti-China sentiments are popular and applauded. I don't remember the last time I've seen positive articles about China. China has been in an undeclared war with the US since the 1950s. Xi was dumb enough to reveal that. There's no "positive articles about China" because the CCP is only interested in taking from others - even your organs.
- alisonatwork 6y ago
  Something changed in the past 5 years or so. For a while, the American tech press was pretty doting on Alibaba and a lot of people in the west still had the hope that China was going to be a great new frontier for western products and cultural exchange, thanks to the booming middle class. A lot of that goodwill started getting frittered away as the CCP were involved with events that appeared to threaten freedom/democracy and autonomy both in the China region and around the rest of the world. Just a few off the top of my head... - 2016 Artificial islands and military bases built in South China Sea - 2017 Four Corners report on CCP influence operations in Australia - 2017 HRW report on Uighur reeducation camps - 2018 Xi Jinping dissolves term limits - 2018 Two Michaels detained - 2019 Hong Kong National Security Law and protests - 2020 Coronavirus - 2020 Ladakh border skirmishes There are lots more examples. Meanwhile, citizen journalists are being disappeared and foreign journalists are getting kicked out of the country, which is only making it more difficult to get independent reporting of what is going on. Personally, I don't think it's so much that there is no positive reporting about China happening in the west any more, it's just that now the more optimistic stuff is balanced out by a more cynical take.
  - underseacables 6y ago
    I wonder if HN is able to identify Chinese state manipulation of the comments here. I’ve never seen so many Sinophile defensive comments before. It’s almost like someone pushed a button and called for backup.
    - ngokevin 6y ago
      Have you been to China, talked to its people often, or do you get most of your sentiments online from other commenters and through news? I'd argue there is US mass media manipulation. There's simply clear monetary (and nationalistic) incentive in riling Americans against an evil enemy. In my eyes, the US paints China as evil just as much as NK paints US as evil. Do you not think it's propaganda that all the news is one sided, have you not considered a scenario where Americans might have been planted a bias by the media? Also, I'd be an effin' amazing impostor to act as a plant as a YC alum on HN with my username orange. Maybe China wired me some money.
apsec112 6y ago
A lot of tech company reporters seem to write nothing but negative articles. David Streitfeld, for example, wrote nothing but negative pieces every week or two for years, at least the last time I checked pre-pandemic.
- underseacables 6y ago
  I contend that it’s well known in the tech community that if you bash Apple, you will not get invited to the next event. If you criticize a tech company as a tech journalist, you’re not going to get invited to the next unveiling, the next product release, and that will have a detrimental impact on your career. Some can ride that line without worry, but rank and file tech reporters DEPEND on access, and will not do anything to disrupt it.
skybrian 6y ago
I don't know why you think that given all the negative press that big tech has been getting for at least five years.
franklampard 6y ago
That is just factually incorrect. For the recent years, Western reporters trended to report negatively about tech companies and China.

hnracer 6y ago

It's wild and rather irresponsible given the censorship and surveillance that people in China are subjected to.

underseacables 6y ago
China is an insecure authoritarian nation that desperately wants to be accepted, and seen as a legitimate, first world superpower. However their actions have made it such that for generations, rational individuals will always second-guess everything they do. “...well yeah but, it’s China!” It’s unfortunate but How often do we see comments like that? China has been such a brutal, oppressive nation that it’s really hard to overlook, and accept at face value anything that comes out of it.

tehjoker 6y ago

tbf this is pretty similar to what the left in the US says about billionaires. I wouldn't completely discount it as state propaganda. In the US, it is incredible how often reporters parrot security state talking points without any research into whether they're accurate, such as how people piled on Russia after the recent hacking scandal without any evidence shown, just a gut insinuation as far as I know. The only advice I can give is: always be skeptical. period.

varjag 6y ago
There is a huge difference in freedom of expressing your opinion online between your country and authoritarian states. I know your first instinct would be to say "yes but…", but it's not. Not even close, not even 0.1%. People without first hand experience often do not comprehend it, even if accept the argument logically. But when you live there, you grow up with the 6th sense of political momentum. It's as natural as breathing. You are not starting to shit on a powerful person in your country unless you sense a strong political tailwind.
- tehjoker 6y ago
  That may be true, but it's important to specify the state as every state is different. A generic authoritarianism isn't helpful to compare to.

karmasimida 6y ago

Both are true. Jack Ma was a governmental sponsored big tech monopoly that hated by many small merchants. Now the government decided to punish Alibaba, so the crowds cheered, for whom the saddest part is the whole thing has little to do with them from start to end

varjag 6y ago
Sure. Just that the moment (if) he settles it with CCP under the carpet, all this "grandson Ma" stuff in the comments will stop overnight.
- karmasimida 6y ago
  FYI, Jack Ma owns Weibo, he can surely make stuff disappear regardless if he sees fit.

konjin 6y ago

Go at a homeless camp in SF and look around for someone who hates Google because their old rent controlled unit got sold. No astroturf needed to find people who hate the rich in a society that punishes the poor.

varjag 6y ago
So were these homeless Chinese proletarian people in favor of Ma before? What happened? Why it coincided with his falling out of favor? :)
tomcam 6y ago
How do we punish the poor?

justicezyx 6y ago

People's comments are real, and CCP's manipulation, too, is real. Mr. Ma famously claimed that 996 is a blessing of fortune [1], despite the global outcry on 996, Jack was untouched almost entirely in the media and online circle. He probably was deemed a member of the entrepreneur class, which cannot be unethical I guess? Jack said that he is not interested in money on CCTV (the national TV station) [2], a rather hypocritical statement. He claimed that Chinese banking system works as pawnshop, while at the same time his Ant works like "payday loan". He claimed that Chinese financial system is not innovative enough, while Ant is repeating the same gambling practiced 10 years ago. Jack joked that AI is Alibaba Intelligence in front of Elon Musk. Universally ridiculed in China. Jack was a close friend of actress Zhao Wei was caught in camera of close interchanges, (Google 马云赵薇) Mrs Zhao also participate Ant IPO through her mother. She was banned from security market for misconduct [3]. After that, Jack said they were not close at all [4]. There are plenty more. Probably most were censored already. These are just the most brazen ones I suppose. Remember that Chinese were indoctrinated through Communism ideology. Mr. Ma can even appear in public is itself a proof that he is under the protection of CCP while he is still useful. An ordinary citizen, showing these behaviors, would have to worry about their personal safety at all times; and would be mocked everyday online. Not for Mr. Jack Ma though. Now let's see how far CCP wants to expose Mr. Jack Ma to the people's resentment... [1] https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/15/business/jack-ma-996-china/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/15/business/jack-ma-996-china/in... [2] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oVi5EGbZy1A https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oVi5EGbZy1A [3] http://www.xinhuanet.com/fortune/2018-04/16/c_129851599.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/fortune/2018-04/16/c_129851599.htm https://3g.163.com/dy/article/ED813TL60542805D.html?spss=adap_pc https://3g.163.com/dy/article/ED813TL60542805D.html?spss=ada... [4] https://m.sohu.com/a/209719774_583509/?pvid=000115_3w_a https://m.sohu.com/a/209719774_583509/?pvid=000115_3w_a

elefanten 6y ago
Can you elaborate about the "can even appear in public" and "worry about their personal safety" parts of your comment? I'm curious and not sure I understand if I'm taking them correctly. Are you saying that a sufficiently unpopular public figure would have a high likelihood of being physically attacked on the street?