5 ms·

you can't compare eink with lcd - one requires backlight one not at all - toally different technology

anotheryou 6y ago
Well firstly you can literally compare anything ;) But to be more precise: both "emit" light depending on the ambient light. Of course it's comparable. The only thing really throwing off the LCD would be the white balance, but with the right sensor that too could be fixed (e.g. a camera with fixed wight balance behind milk-glass).
- tyler109 6y ago
  What about the the blue light emissons?
  - anotheryou 6y ago
    What about them? (E-)Paper reflects blue light, LCD backlight emits it. The only difference is that the color balance and brightness don't change with the sunset on your screen unless you install a tool like flux. Light is light. Looks the same = probably is the same. Bands are just a bit narrower with LEDs, but I wonder if that makes any difference biologically if it looks the same.
    - itronitron 6y ago
      With a backlit monitor (or projection screen) your visual system is doing extra work to reconcile two different lighting conditions. eink/epaper is reflecting ambient light just like every other object in the environment so your vision won't need to adjust when glancing back and forth
      - anotheryou 6y ago
        Yes, e-paper auto-adjusts. But so do phones if they are set right (best done with a matte screen).
      - Stratoscope 6y ago
        This sounds like your monitor is set too bright. (Or less likely, not bright enough.) If you set your monitor to the same brightness that paper or a non-backlit screen would have in your room, then your vision doesn't have to adjust to the different brightness levels. Same for TV. Don't watch TV in a dark room! When I had a modest home theater with a projection TV (the old bulky kind, not a separate projector and screen), one of the best things I did was to light the white wall behind it with a soft neutral gray light. The technique at the time was to use a small fluorescent desk lamp on a small table behind the TV, with the fluorescent tube wrapped in a specific color of lighting "gel" to make it a neutral gray. The lamp was aimed up at the wall behind the TV. This made everything much easier on the eyes.
zeta0134 6y ago
You can't compare eInk with backlit LCD, but front-lit LCD panels totally exist; see any pocket calculator. For a dot-matrix display, the original Gameboy Color is the best example I personally own, but I'm sure countless others exist. The main trouble I think is that very few (any?) manufacturers are making front-lit LCD panels at typical monitor sizes and resolutions. I guess there's not really a market for it? But if such a thing exists I'd compare the heck out of it and eInk.
- anotheryou 6y ago
  I certainly meant backlit. Viewing angle would be another pain point with them, but that also came a long way and you could chose one with good angles if needed.
- tyler109 6y ago
  There is also really interesting development happening in the frontlight tech sector. Check out FLEx Lighting, they raiselnd raised 9mln USD to Launch LCD 2.0: https://forum.ei2030.org/t/flex-lighting-raises-9m-in-funding-to-launch-lcd-2-0-display-technology/60 https://forum.ei2030.org/t/flex-lighting-raises-9m-in-fundin...
  - baybal2 6y ago
    Original EEE Note came with such display. People still chose Eink despite the price, and slow refresh.
- tyler109 6y ago
  There is for an example an interesting market in medical radiology imaging. This is a profession like many other who is always looking for ways to reduce eye strain. they see it as an occupational hazard: http://europepmc.org/article/PMC/5449879 http://europepmc.org/article/PMC/5449879 This is relevant for pretty much any knowledge worker job as well.
mojomark 6y ago
Not all LCD screens require a backlight. Reflective and Transparent LCD's can operate without backlights (1, 2), and the hybrid transflective LCD's can use ambient light and/or backlight to illuminate the image. Transflective LCDs improve sunlight readability without the need for an intense backlight. All LCD's essentially use a similar liquid crystal pixel that serves as a variable light shutter for polarized light. It's the back- and front-planes (e.g. addition or omission of RGB color filters, different types of backlights, fully or partially reflective layers, etc.) that differentiate different types of LCDs. If you have an old LCD laying around, with many of them you can actually take the different layers apart to access the active or passive matrix LCD panel (you'll end up with a transparent LCD). I did it once with a tiny LCD, it's pretty cool. Then you can play around with adding your own layers/lighting effects. 1.) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_display https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal... 2.) https://www.winstar.com.tw/products/tft-lcd/transflective-tft.html https://www.winstar.com.tw/products/tft-lcd/transflective-tf...
- floatboth 6y ago
  I really like the transflective screen of the Pebble Time watch. I wish I could get a transflective monitor :D

Well firstly you can literally compare anything ;) But to be more precise: both "emit" light depending on the ambient light. Of course it's comparable. The only thing really throwing off the LCD would be the white balance, but with the right sensor that too could be fixed (e.g. a camera with fixed wight balance behind milk-glass).

tyler109 6y ago
What about the the blue light emissons?
- anotheryou 6y ago
  What about them? (E-)Paper reflects blue light, LCD backlight emits it. The only difference is that the color balance and brightness don't change with the sunset on your screen unless you install a tool like flux. Light is light. Looks the same = probably is the same. Bands are just a bit narrower with LEDs, but I wonder if that makes any difference biologically if it looks the same.
  - itronitron 6y ago
    With a backlit monitor (or projection screen) your visual system is doing extra work to reconcile two different lighting conditions. eink/epaper is reflecting ambient light just like every other object in the environment so your vision won't need to adjust when glancing back and forth
    - anotheryou 6y ago
      Yes, e-paper auto-adjusts. But so do phones if they are set right (best done with a matte screen).
    - Stratoscope 6y ago
      This sounds like your monitor is set too bright. (Or less likely, not bright enough.) If you set your monitor to the same brightness that paper or a non-backlit screen would have in your room, then your vision doesn't have to adjust to the different brightness levels. Same for TV. Don't watch TV in a dark room! When I had a modest home theater with a projection TV (the old bulky kind, not a separate projector and screen), one of the best things I did was to light the white wall behind it with a soft neutral gray light. The technique at the time was to use a small fluorescent desk lamp on a small table behind the TV, with the fluorescent tube wrapped in a specific color of lighting "gel" to make it a neutral gray. The lamp was aimed up at the wall behind the TV. This made everything much easier on the eyes.

zeta0134 6y ago

You can't compare eInk with backlit LCD, but front-lit LCD panels totally exist; see any pocket calculator. For a dot-matrix display, the original Gameboy Color is the best example I personally own, but I'm sure countless others exist. The main trouble I think is that very few (any?) manufacturers are making front-lit LCD panels at typical monitor sizes and resolutions. I guess there's not really a market for it? But if such a thing exists I'd compare the heck out of it and eInk.

anotheryou 6y ago
I certainly meant backlit. Viewing angle would be another pain point with them, but that also came a long way and you could chose one with good angles if needed.
tyler109 6y ago
There is also really interesting development happening in the frontlight tech sector. Check out FLEx Lighting, they raiselnd raised 9mln USD to Launch LCD 2.0: https://forum.ei2030.org/t/flex-lighting-raises-9m-in-funding-to-launch-lcd-2-0-display-technology/60 https://forum.ei2030.org/t/flex-lighting-raises-9m-in-fundin...
- baybal2 6y ago
  Original EEE Note came with such display. People still chose Eink despite the price, and slow refresh.
tyler109 6y ago
There is for an example an interesting market in medical radiology imaging. This is a profession like many other who is always looking for ways to reduce eye strain. they see it as an occupational hazard: http://europepmc.org/article/PMC/5449879 http://europepmc.org/article/PMC/5449879 This is relevant for pretty much any knowledge worker job as well.

mojomark 6y ago

Not all LCD screens require a backlight. Reflective and Transparent LCD's can operate without backlights (1, 2), and the hybrid transflective LCD's can use ambient light and/or backlight to illuminate the image. Transflective LCDs improve sunlight readability without the need for an intense backlight. All LCD's essentially use a similar liquid crystal pixel that serves as a variable light shutter for polarized light. It's the back- and front-planes (e.g. addition or omission of RGB color filters, different types of backlights, fully or partially reflective layers, etc.) that differentiate different types of LCDs. If you have an old LCD laying around, with many of them you can actually take the different layers apart to access the active or passive matrix LCD panel (you'll end up with a transparent LCD). I did it once with a tiny LCD, it's pretty cool. Then you can play around with adding your own layers/lighting effects. 1.) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal_display https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transflective_liquid-crystal... 2.) https://www.winstar.com.tw/products/tft-lcd/transflective-tft.html https://www.winstar.com.tw/products/tft-lcd/transflective-tf...

floatboth 6y ago
I really like the transflective screen of the Pebble Time watch. I wish I could get a transflective monitor :D