4 ms·

Something I’ve noticed about myself that’s related to this: I often go through intense periods of depression and anxiety with thoughts that center around a perc

Something I’ve noticed about myself that’s related to this: I often go through intense periods of depression and anxiety with thoughts that center around a perceived lack of meaning in my life (i.e. wondering what the point of my life is despite it being “good” by most measures). One thing I notice about these periods is that I tend to “float” between stimuli such as YouTube videos, “fast” news articles, and even HN posts and comments, often feeling like I have no control over the behavior and I’m just having my brain hijacked repeatedly by something on my phone before I can even fully process the thought I was just having. I’m curious to see if this approach might be a way to short-circuit that feeling so I can align my downtime activities more closely with my values and things that actually bring me meaning and joy. Sometimes it feels impossible, though, because I’m basically addicted to information by way of the internet. I’ve been using a computer since I was a child and I’m now in my mid-30s, so 30 years of behavior seems incredibly challenging to overcome.

isitdopamine 6y ago
Hi! Your first paragraph exactly describes my life now. I couldn’t write it any better. It resonated so much, I had to create this throwaway account (my account is essentially my real name, I am a bit uncomfortable discussing mental health on a public space in non-anonymous form). How do you exit from this state? I would be so, so grateful if you could answer (if you know the answer) here or at isitdopamine on Gmail. Psychotherapy doesn’t help much, even though I plan on allowing more time for it, I know it takes time!
- thatsamonad 6y ago
  Firstly, I’m glad you’re able to relate but I’m also sorry to hear you go through the same thing. I know from experience it can be incredibly painful and lonely at times. > How do you exit from this state? I wish I had a good answer for you. Most of the time I snap out of it through “brute force” by focusing my attention elsewhere. Building and doing things with my hands (like playing an instrument, cleaning around the house, or even playing with LEGO) seem to be the most effective ways for me to overcome it. Some days that works well, and other days I’m right back to my habits after just a few minutes. Work is also a good distraction for me sometimes because I enjoy what I do, but I spend my day working in front of a screen so sometimes I wonder how much that helps vs hurts. I think the most important thing I’ve done is just recognize when it’s happening, that way I can at least try to break the pattern. I mostly just take it one day at a time. > Psychotherapy doesn’t help much, even though I plan on allowing more time for it, I know it takes time! I’ve been in and out of therapy most of my life since I was a teen (I grew up in a toxic and abusive household so much of my focus has been recovering from that). Some of it has helped but for whatever reason it doesn’t always “stick” like I hope it would. I’ve also tried various medications but my “issues” seem deeply rooted, existential, and not easily overcome by a pill. I truly hope you find something that works for you! I know it’s not easy but I try to stay optimistic that one day my efforts will prevail and something will give.
  - isitdopamine 6y ago
    Many, many thanks for your reply! > Building and doing things with my hands (like playing an instrument, cleaning around the house, or even playing with LEGO) seem to be the most effective ways for me to overcome it. Same here, even though LEGO can stress me out sometimes! But playing music is always a great source of peace! Reading even, as long as it's fiction. Asimov seems to redirect my attention to a single target, and that helps! > Work is also a good distraction for me sometimes because I enjoy what I do This also is the same for me, but there's a minor part (let's say 20% or 30%) of my job that I don't really enjoy, and that really sets me back, every single time... I will try following your suggestions, and I will focus more on different activities that can distract me in a positive way! I wish you all the best, and I hope with all my heart that 2021 will bring resolution to your issues! From you username I would guess that you like Haskell, I also love it! :)
- splintercell 6y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25540850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25540850
- l_t 6y ago
  As someone who's experienced something very similar, I've built a theory around why it happens: 1. The floating from task to task is almost always avoidant behavior. The experience is usually accompanied by a "slippery" thought -- something you don't want to think about, something that makes you feel sick or causes you stress, and so your thoughts are trying to latch onto something to distract them. 2. One solution is to eliminate distractions, rest calmly in yourself, and practice mindful attention. Meditate. Engage rationally with the slippery thought. Or just observe it, practice letting it happen without interrupting it. Teach yourself: that thought is not to be feared. 3. The long-term solution is to resolve the concerns that your slippery thoughts are related to. For example, In the case of the person you replied to, they mentioned this phrase: "thoughts that center around a perceived lack of meaning in my life." In that case, there might be actual life changes that you can make to introduce a greater sense of meaning. On the other hand, if the underlying thought is "I have a presentation tomorrow," that's a case where you may want to look at reducing your performance anxiety in general. And so forth. Of course every case is different, but when this happens to you next I'd strongly recommend looking inward to see if there are any of those slippery, "hot potato" thoughts that you're subconsciously trying to avoid. If so -- I suggest addressing that. If not -- well, maybe you've got a dopamine addiction :)
forgotmypw17 6y ago
>wondering what the point of my life is despite it being “good” by most measures It may be time to reconsider what measures you're using to assess your life, and whether they're still valid for you.
- thatsamonad 6y ago
  I think that statement is fair and part of the anxiety/depression I feel. I grew up in a family of poor drug addicts, so I've tied a lot of my notions about success and a "good" life to things like financial security and stability. I've mostly achieved those things but now I'm left with "bigger" questions about what my life means and how I can contribute to the world.
bennysonething 6y ago
"so I can align my downtime activities more closely with my values and things that actually bring me meaning and joy. " Jesus. This hit a nerve with me. I've been thinking this for ages but did not put it in words. My problem is I feel so exhausted from work my down can only be meaningless. I'm also plagued with work thoughts on down time. The bits of the system I got handed to me I don't understand. The domain knowledge I lack. The things that might break. Honestly I tend to drink to shut it off.
splintercell 6y ago
>i.e. wondering what the point of my life is despite it being “good” by most measures Stephen Pinker uses an example that considering we have some evolutionary development followed by acquisition of rational ability that we tend to rationalize things we acquired through evolution. He uses an example of peacock but I use a different example. For instance, cats have an evolutionary behavior which makes them cover their leftover food, to hide their tracks from prey (called 'caching'). If you have a cat living in your apartment, then you will see them try to cover their food with imaginary dirt [1]. If Cats developed rational ability, and you asked them why they were doing it on a hardwood floor, they might say "I do it because I give my food back to earth, this helps me procure my next meal", or "I do it because I am thanking the cat gods for giving me that food", or even "because I am cleaning my paws after eating by rubbing them on the ground right next to the bowl" or something other funny like that. Same thing goes here. Evolutionarily speaking, we evolved to chase food and satiate the hunger. What happens if we are constantly 'full', well evolution doesn't really know much about that. There has been no natural conditions under which a creature is full all the time, however there are situations when a creature is hungry all the time. If you are going to create a situation in which you're 'full' all the time (as you described 'good by most measures'), then you're pushing your mind in an uncomfortable situation where it doesn't know what to do. It's like if earthquake survivor sniffing dogs don't catch survivors for some time then they get depressed, so their handler has to make them sniff out fake survivors to make them feel better. In a nutshell, you've eliminated your hunger, and now your mind doesn't know what to do. Reintroduce hunger. Not necessarily literally, but it would be the easiest, most practical way of doing it. I've been facing a similar problem for past few years, and my solution was to leave the comforts of the first world as an immediate measure and it made a big difference. 1. https://youtu.be/vxpe3V0pspM https://youtu.be/vxpe3V0pspM
- MikeIkerson 6y ago
  > my solution was to leave the comforts of the first world as an immediate measure and it made a big difference. Can you elaborate on that? How did you manage to leave first world comforts behind while also maintaining a career that requires daily computer use?
benohear 6y ago
To your last point, if it is possible for drug addicts and alcoholics to overcome decade long compulsive behavior, there is no reason you can’t too. If you are genuinely clear as to your values and what gives you meaning then mostly it would be a case of building new habits. I’ve found B.J. Fogg’s Tiny Habits to be really effective for that. One other thing worth mentioning is that you might be beating yourself up for not being productive in your spare time, which is particularly self defeating since the feeling of guilt will lead to more of the avoidance behavior. If you are tired after a full days work maybe start by planning more meaningful ways to relax, like watching a good movie, taking a bath or reading a book. Finally make sure you are actually pursuing happiness in the right place. Laurie Santos’s podcast on happiness is well worth a listen (and is conveniently also a relaxing thing to listen to in your spare time :-)
- thatsamonad 6y ago
  > To your last point, if it is possible for drug addicts and alcoholics to overcome decade long compulsive behavior, there is no reason you can’t too. Agreed. It certainly feels impossible but I know rationally that it isn't. That being said, bridging the rational knowing vs the emotional feeling is always a challenge, especially with behaviors that are compulsive. > One other thing worth mentioning is that you might be beating yourself up for not being productive in your spare time, which is particularly self defeating since the feeling of guilt will lead to more of the avoidance behavior It's interesting that you mention this because I do carry a lot of guilt when I'm not working or learning something, which definitely tends to exacerbate the avoidant behavior and make me more likely to engage in it. I have a very hard time accepting that something like watching a movie, reading a (non-work) book, or playing a video game is "worthwhile", because it feels like it's not "productive". It's something I'm definitely working on, however.
  - benohear 6y ago
    May I suggest two framings that might help? The first is that the option of being permanently productive doesn’t seem to be open to you, at least not right now. The bit that makes compulsive behavior so hard to get rid of is that it bypasses the executive circuits of the brain, and if you are fighting on two fronts by trying to do reestablish rational control AND strong arming yourself into doing something productive in a state of exhaustion then it is even harder. So realistically at the moment the choice is between meaningful downtime and endless YouTubes (or whatever your rabbit hole of choice is). Once you have reestablished executive control then you can consider reintroducing productive activities. The second reframing is to view culture and social interactions as learning about the human condition. You’re still growing your brain, just not in a way that is directly applicable to your professional life. And in any case: No one should go through life without having read War and Peace :-)

isitdopamine 6y ago

Hi! Your first paragraph exactly describes my life now. I couldn’t write it any better. It resonated so much, I had to create this throwaway account (my account is essentially my real name, I am a bit uncomfortable discussing mental health on a public space in non-anonymous form). How do you exit from this state? I would be so, so grateful if you could answer (if you know the answer) here or at isitdopamine on Gmail. Psychotherapy doesn’t help much, even though I plan on allowing more time for it, I know it takes time!

thatsamonad 6y ago
Firstly, I’m glad you’re able to relate but I’m also sorry to hear you go through the same thing. I know from experience it can be incredibly painful and lonely at times. > How do you exit from this state? I wish I had a good answer for you. Most of the time I snap out of it through “brute force” by focusing my attention elsewhere. Building and doing things with my hands (like playing an instrument, cleaning around the house, or even playing with LEGO) seem to be the most effective ways for me to overcome it. Some days that works well, and other days I’m right back to my habits after just a few minutes. Work is also a good distraction for me sometimes because I enjoy what I do, but I spend my day working in front of a screen so sometimes I wonder how much that helps vs hurts. I think the most important thing I’ve done is just recognize when it’s happening, that way I can at least try to break the pattern. I mostly just take it one day at a time. > Psychotherapy doesn’t help much, even though I plan on allowing more time for it, I know it takes time! I’ve been in and out of therapy most of my life since I was a teen (I grew up in a toxic and abusive household so much of my focus has been recovering from that). Some of it has helped but for whatever reason it doesn’t always “stick” like I hope it would. I’ve also tried various medications but my “issues” seem deeply rooted, existential, and not easily overcome by a pill. I truly hope you find something that works for you! I know it’s not easy but I try to stay optimistic that one day my efforts will prevail and something will give.
- isitdopamine 6y ago
  Many, many thanks for your reply! > Building and doing things with my hands (like playing an instrument, cleaning around the house, or even playing with LEGO) seem to be the most effective ways for me to overcome it. Same here, even though LEGO can stress me out sometimes! But playing music is always a great source of peace! Reading even, as long as it's fiction. Asimov seems to redirect my attention to a single target, and that helps! > Work is also a good distraction for me sometimes because I enjoy what I do This also is the same for me, but there's a minor part (let's say 20% or 30%) of my job that I don't really enjoy, and that really sets me back, every single time... I will try following your suggestions, and I will focus more on different activities that can distract me in a positive way! I wish you all the best, and I hope with all my heart that 2021 will bring resolution to your issues! From you username I would guess that you like Haskell, I also love it! :)
splintercell 6y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25540850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25540850
l_t 6y ago
As someone who's experienced something very similar, I've built a theory around why it happens: 1. The floating from task to task is almost always avoidant behavior. The experience is usually accompanied by a "slippery" thought -- something you don't want to think about, something that makes you feel sick or causes you stress, and so your thoughts are trying to latch onto something to distract them. 2. One solution is to eliminate distractions, rest calmly in yourself, and practice mindful attention. Meditate. Engage rationally with the slippery thought. Or just observe it, practice letting it happen without interrupting it. Teach yourself: that thought is not to be feared. 3. The long-term solution is to resolve the concerns that your slippery thoughts are related to. For example, In the case of the person you replied to, they mentioned this phrase: "thoughts that center around a perceived lack of meaning in my life." In that case, there might be actual life changes that you can make to introduce a greater sense of meaning. On the other hand, if the underlying thought is "I have a presentation tomorrow," that's a case where you may want to look at reducing your performance anxiety in general. And so forth. Of course every case is different, but when this happens to you next I'd strongly recommend looking inward to see if there are any of those slippery, "hot potato" thoughts that you're subconsciously trying to avoid. If so -- I suggest addressing that. If not -- well, maybe you've got a dopamine addiction :)

forgotmypw17 6y ago

>wondering what the point of my life is despite it being “good” by most measures It may be time to reconsider what measures you're using to assess your life, and whether they're still valid for you.

thatsamonad 6y ago
I think that statement is fair and part of the anxiety/depression I feel. I grew up in a family of poor drug addicts, so I've tied a lot of my notions about success and a "good" life to things like financial security and stability. I've mostly achieved those things but now I'm left with "bigger" questions about what my life means and how I can contribute to the world.

bennysonething 6y ago

"so I can align my downtime activities more closely with my values and things that actually bring me meaning and joy. " Jesus. This hit a nerve with me. I've been thinking this for ages but did not put it in words. My problem is I feel so exhausted from work my down can only be meaningless. I'm also plagued with work thoughts on down time. The bits of the system I got handed to me I don't understand. The domain knowledge I lack. The things that might break. Honestly I tend to drink to shut it off.

splintercell 6y ago

>i.e. wondering what the point of my life is despite it being “good” by most measures Stephen Pinker uses an example that considering we have some evolutionary development followed by acquisition of rational ability that we tend to rationalize things we acquired through evolution. He uses an example of peacock but I use a different example. For instance, cats have an evolutionary behavior which makes them cover their leftover food, to hide their tracks from prey (called 'caching'). If you have a cat living in your apartment, then you will see them try to cover their food with imaginary dirt [1]. If Cats developed rational ability, and you asked them why they were doing it on a hardwood floor, they might say "I do it because I give my food back to earth, this helps me procure my next meal", or "I do it because I am thanking the cat gods for giving me that food", or even "because I am cleaning my paws after eating by rubbing them on the ground right next to the bowl" or something other funny like that. Same thing goes here. Evolutionarily speaking, we evolved to chase food and satiate the hunger. What happens if we are constantly 'full', well evolution doesn't really know much about that. There has been no natural conditions under which a creature is full all the time, however there are situations when a creature is hungry all the time. If you are going to create a situation in which you're 'full' all the time (as you described 'good by most measures'), then you're pushing your mind in an uncomfortable situation where it doesn't know what to do. It's like if earthquake survivor sniffing dogs don't catch survivors for some time then they get depressed, so their handler has to make them sniff out fake survivors to make them feel better. In a nutshell, you've eliminated your hunger, and now your mind doesn't know what to do. Reintroduce hunger. Not necessarily literally, but it would be the easiest, most practical way of doing it. I've been facing a similar problem for past few years, and my solution was to leave the comforts of the first world as an immediate measure and it made a big difference. 1. https://youtu.be/vxpe3V0pspM https://youtu.be/vxpe3V0pspM

MikeIkerson 6y ago
> my solution was to leave the comforts of the first world as an immediate measure and it made a big difference. Can you elaborate on that? How did you manage to leave first world comforts behind while also maintaining a career that requires daily computer use?

benohear 6y ago

To your last point, if it is possible for drug addicts and alcoholics to overcome decade long compulsive behavior, there is no reason you can’t too. If you are genuinely clear as to your values and what gives you meaning then mostly it would be a case of building new habits. I’ve found B.J. Fogg’s Tiny Habits to be really effective for that. One other thing worth mentioning is that you might be beating yourself up for not being productive in your spare time, which is particularly self defeating since the feeling of guilt will lead to more of the avoidance behavior. If you are tired after a full days work maybe start by planning more meaningful ways to relax, like watching a good movie, taking a bath or reading a book. Finally make sure you are actually pursuing happiness in the right place. Laurie Santos’s podcast on happiness is well worth a listen (and is conveniently also a relaxing thing to listen to in your spare time :-)

thatsamonad 6y ago
> To your last point, if it is possible for drug addicts and alcoholics to overcome decade long compulsive behavior, there is no reason you can’t too. Agreed. It certainly feels impossible but I know rationally that it isn't. That being said, bridging the rational knowing vs the emotional feeling is always a challenge, especially with behaviors that are compulsive. > One other thing worth mentioning is that you might be beating yourself up for not being productive in your spare time, which is particularly self defeating since the feeling of guilt will lead to more of the avoidance behavior It's interesting that you mention this because I do carry a lot of guilt when I'm not working or learning something, which definitely tends to exacerbate the avoidant behavior and make me more likely to engage in it. I have a very hard time accepting that something like watching a movie, reading a (non-work) book, or playing a video game is "worthwhile", because it feels like it's not "productive". It's something I'm definitely working on, however.
- benohear 6y ago
  May I suggest two framings that might help? The first is that the option of being permanently productive doesn’t seem to be open to you, at least not right now. The bit that makes compulsive behavior so hard to get rid of is that it bypasses the executive circuits of the brain, and if you are fighting on two fronts by trying to do reestablish rational control AND strong arming yourself into doing something productive in a state of exhaustion then it is even harder. So realistically at the moment the choice is between meaningful downtime and endless YouTubes (or whatever your rabbit hole of choice is). Once you have reestablished executive control then you can consider reintroducing productive activities. The second reframing is to view culture and social interactions as learning about the human condition. You’re still growing your brain, just not in a way that is directly applicable to your professional life. And in any case: No one should go through life without having read War and Peace :-)