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What's wrong with mailing lists? Is there anything better for general discussion than the mailing lists? The problem with forums is that you can't really trus

by cnst 6y ago

What's wrong with mailing lists? Is there anything better for general discussion than the mailing lists? The problem with forums is that you can't really trust them. They're generally not archived well, UI is poor, editing of old messages can easily get abused (probably the reasons HN removes your ability to edit old messages shortly after posting). Mailing lists are much less prone to censorship, are better for archival and preservation of knowledge (both for your own local archival, as well as the distributed global archiving of complete archives), interoperable, convenient and easy to use. --- I mean, just take a look at GitHub issues. It's a total mess. Things get locked and deleted. Links get broken. Attracts thousands of useless comments on popular issues; never any sort of a summary for how the problem is resolved (if at all), the root cause of any issue, or why it won't be fixed. Any time I get a GitHub Issue as a hit, it's usually a total waste of time trying to make sense of it; much more so than the mailing list posts, which often have threading, less spam, and are easier to navigate. Yes, a special interface is a good thing in theory. But it's been a complete mess in practice.

sofixa 6y ago
Mailing lists are terrible to search through and navigate, at the very least. GitHub and Gitlab also implement some nice features such as auto-suggest ( to check if the subject has already been discussed) and smart linking.
Avamander 6y ago
> What's wrong with mailing lists? Inaccessible. Terribly indexed. Awful formatting tools. Encourages un-followable discussion branching. Increasingly broken with modern mailing security mechanisms. > The problem with forums is that you can't really trust them. They're generally not archived well, UI is poor [...] Links get broken. [...] Attracts thousands of useless comments on popular issues; [...] They're generally not archived well. All this also applies to mailing lists. > Things get locked and deleted. This deserves a longer reply. List archives get lost as well, if they were available at all. I do agree that deletion rights given to maintainers is a stupid idea, it's very prone to misuse. But mailing lists also have that, maintainers can simply block e-mails reaching the list. At least with deletion people subscribed to new issues will always get them (in the case of GitHub). > Editing of old messages can easily get abused (probably the reasons HN removes your ability to edit old messages shortly after posting). Forum config problem. > Mailing lists are much less prone to censorship [citation required] Pretty sure they all have some moderation tools or it'd get totally out of hand either due to spam or by malicious actors. > never any sort of a summary for how the problem is resolved (if at all), the root cause of any issue, or why it won't be fixed. That's not specific to the tech used for discussion. > But it's been a complete mess in practice. But still less of a mess than mailing lists and that's what matters.
- cnst 6y ago
  Which exact projects do you have in mind? Because none of the issues you identify seem to apply to the BSDs. We don't really have the notion of "maintainers", either, so, I'm guessing your comments aren't as a BSD user per se? The BSDs have excellent archives of the mailing lists; FreeBSD, NetBSD and DragonFly have their own websites with complete or near-complete archives, including full threading and sub-threading support; all BSDs are also archived on marc.info, and plentiful of other sources, some of which do come and go; but archives themselves are downloadable in bulk from the underlying projects, so, archiving is generally a non-issue. What formatting tools? Why would I need any formatting tools to hack the kernel? That's only a benefit that none are available. Security mechanisms? How's GitHub any better? Anyone can make any account and pretend to be anyone. Or do you suggest GitHub introduce Account Verification, so that someone at Microsoft-owned GitHub could then decide whether or not you're an OSS contributor worthy of a Blue Checkmark to accompany your name? I think we did have people pretend to be de Raadt or Dillon over the years, but it's generally not really an issue; often just the April 1 jokes; very easy to verify based on headers. > Forum config problem. OK, now we're talking! So, how about all those forums fix their "forum config" problems, and then maybe we'll talk? Mailing lists are by far superior to what GitHub or any other popular forums actually do offer as of today. GitHub Issues, for example, doesn't even support threading within an Issue; unlike the mailing lists since decades ago. There's absolutely no archiving of GitHub Issues being done anywhere that I'm aware of, apart from user-initiated archive.today. So, even in such basic aspects, mailing lists are already superior. Not to mention that we have contributors from across the globe, whereas Microsoft disables (without notice) GitHub accounts of anyone who's a citizen or a visitor of the geographic places and peninsulas you aren't supposed to visit or originate from -- covering dozens of millions of global citizens, denying them access to code for no good reason.
  - Avamander 6y ago
    > Because none of the issues you identify seem to apply to the BSDs. A lot of those issues are fundamental to mailing lists and e-mails. They do apply. > What formatting tools? Why would I need any formatting tools to hack the kernel? Having text formatting tools is really useful when communicating things. If you don't need it, okay, that doesn't negate its usefulness for others. > Security mechanisms? DKIM/DMARC/SPF. The rest of your paragraph is tangential, applies to the entire world and all tech where identities come to play, with a few smaller exceptions. > So, how about all those forums fix their "forum config" problems, and then maybe we'll talk? You do realize that's an absolutely ridiculous demand, it's up to the project to have a configuration they like. > GitHub Issues, for example, doesn't even support threading within an Issue; unlike the mailing lists since decades ago. That's a feature, not a bug. > So, even in such basic aspects, mailing lists are already superior Yet in so many others it lags so much behind. In all the aspects you very conveniently did not address in your last comment. > Microsoft disables (without notice) GitHub accounts of anyone who's a citizen or a visitor of the geographic places There are more options out there in addition to GitHub. > Mailing lists are by far superior to what GitHub or any other popular forums actually do offer as of today. That's a very absolute statement. Just calling it "superior" would've been a stretch, "far superior" is borderline delusional.

by cnst 6y ago

sofixa 6y ago

Mailing lists are terrible to search through and navigate, at the very least. GitHub and Gitlab also implement some nice features such as auto-suggest ( to check if the subject has already been discussed) and smart linking.

Avamander 6y ago

> What's wrong with mailing lists? Inaccessible. Terribly indexed. Awful formatting tools. Encourages un-followable discussion branching. Increasingly broken with modern mailing security mechanisms. > The problem with forums is that you can't really trust them. They're generally not archived well, UI is poor [...] Links get broken. [...] Attracts thousands of useless comments on popular issues; [...] They're generally not archived well. All this also applies to mailing lists. > Things get locked and deleted. This deserves a longer reply. List archives get lost as well, if they were available at all. I do agree that deletion rights given to maintainers is a stupid idea, it's very prone to misuse. But mailing lists also have that, maintainers can simply block e-mails reaching the list. At least with deletion people subscribed to new issues will always get them (in the case of GitHub). > Editing of old messages can easily get abused (probably the reasons HN removes your ability to edit old messages shortly after posting). Forum config problem. > Mailing lists are much less prone to censorship [citation required] Pretty sure they all have some moderation tools or it'd get totally out of hand either due to spam or by malicious actors. > never any sort of a summary for how the problem is resolved (if at all), the root cause of any issue, or why it won't be fixed. That's not specific to the tech used for discussion. > But it's been a complete mess in practice. But still less of a mess than mailing lists and that's what matters.

cnst 6y ago
Which exact projects do you have in mind? Because none of the issues you identify seem to apply to the BSDs. We don't really have the notion of "maintainers", either, so, I'm guessing your comments aren't as a BSD user per se? The BSDs have excellent archives of the mailing lists; FreeBSD, NetBSD and DragonFly have their own websites with complete or near-complete archives, including full threading and sub-threading support; all BSDs are also archived on marc.info, and plentiful of other sources, some of which do come and go; but archives themselves are downloadable in bulk from the underlying projects, so, archiving is generally a non-issue. What formatting tools? Why would I need any formatting tools to hack the kernel? That's only a benefit that none are available. Security mechanisms? How's GitHub any better? Anyone can make any account and pretend to be anyone. Or do you suggest GitHub introduce Account Verification, so that someone at Microsoft-owned GitHub could then decide whether or not you're an OSS contributor worthy of a Blue Checkmark to accompany your name? I think we did have people pretend to be de Raadt or Dillon over the years, but it's generally not really an issue; often just the April 1 jokes; very easy to verify based on headers. > Forum config problem. OK, now we're talking! So, how about all those forums fix their "forum config" problems, and then maybe we'll talk? Mailing lists are by far superior to what GitHub or any other popular forums actually do offer as of today. GitHub Issues, for example, doesn't even support threading within an Issue; unlike the mailing lists since decades ago. There's absolutely no archiving of GitHub Issues being done anywhere that I'm aware of, apart from user-initiated archive.today. So, even in such basic aspects, mailing lists are already superior. Not to mention that we have contributors from across the globe, whereas Microsoft disables (without notice) GitHub accounts of anyone who's a citizen or a visitor of the geographic places and peninsulas you aren't supposed to visit or originate from -- covering dozens of millions of global citizens, denying them access to code for no good reason.
- Avamander 6y ago
  > Because none of the issues you identify seem to apply to the BSDs. A lot of those issues are fundamental to mailing lists and e-mails. They do apply. > What formatting tools? Why would I need any formatting tools to hack the kernel? Having text formatting tools is really useful when communicating things. If you don't need it, okay, that doesn't negate its usefulness for others. > Security mechanisms? DKIM/DMARC/SPF. The rest of your paragraph is tangential, applies to the entire world and all tech where identities come to play, with a few smaller exceptions. > So, how about all those forums fix their "forum config" problems, and then maybe we'll talk? You do realize that's an absolutely ridiculous demand, it's up to the project to have a configuration they like. > GitHub Issues, for example, doesn't even support threading within an Issue; unlike the mailing lists since decades ago. That's a feature, not a bug. > So, even in such basic aspects, mailing lists are already superior Yet in so many others it lags so much behind. In all the aspects you very conveniently did not address in your last comment. > Microsoft disables (without notice) GitHub accounts of anyone who's a citizen or a visitor of the geographic places There are more options out there in addition to GitHub. > Mailing lists are by far superior to what GitHub or any other popular forums actually do offer as of today. That's a very absolute statement. Just calling it "superior" would've been a stretch, "far superior" is borderline delusional.