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Assuming knowledge or opinion based on skin color is a very simple example of racist prejudice. Assuming that a person being black means they must have certain

Assuming knowledge or opinion based on skin color is a very simple example of racist prejudice. Assuming that a person being black means they must have certain experiences and ideas is wrong, even if the assumption isn't negative.

Pfhreak 6y ago
Yes, things like "Asians are good at math" is racist, even if it's a positive stereotype. That said, the parent poster said that many leadership positions, plural, were filled by people of color. I think it's probably reasonable to say that a community of many political leaders of color are more familiar with systemic racism. These are folks who specifically choose to get involved in politics and leadership, and likely represent fairly large constituencies. It's not unreasonable to assume that they broadly have experience or are able to communicate with their communities that have experience with systems that negatively impact people of color.
- andi999 6y ago
  So I do not really understand this. (To me having racial categories is racist already, but this seems to be fine/non racist in the US). So would a statement like 'Asians perform significantly higher (by so and so amounts of standard deviation) on Math tests than Caucasians' a racist stereotype while still beiing a fact?
  - Aunche 6y ago
    It's not racist to explain why the majority of your quants are Asian. It is racist to hire a quant because they're Asian. In politics, people tend to do the latter.
  - Pfhreak 6y ago
    Good question. There's a big difference between, "These are the observed results" and "These people are inherently X". And especially different than, "Person is Y, therefore they are good/bad at X". The first statement is open ended, it keeps the door open to systemic factors outside of race that might correlate with race. It also doesn't suggest that everyone of a particular group is better/worse at something. The second statement says that there's something intrinsic to that everyone of that race. It sets up expectations for a group of people. Maybe you are an Asian who isn't good at math? How does that make you feel? How will you be impacted by other people making assumptions about you? The third statement is applying stereotypes to individuals, which is just never going to be a good idea. The differences between the first and second statements are subtle, but important.
    - andi999 6y ago
      So then you are saying the statement 'Asians are good at math' is not the short version of 'we observed that asians are better at math then other races' but the short version of 'Asians are inherently better at math' and therefor racist?
      - ethbr0 6y ago
        The generic "Asians are good at math", in this context, is probably extended as "We observed that certain groups of Asians are good at math, therefore, all Asians are good at math." And as parent pointed out, it's the leap from observed results to expectations about a racial group (or many groups in this case) that makes it racist.
  - sdenton4 6y ago
    The US writ-large tried the 'color blindness' approach for a long time. The general effect was that shit kept rolling downhill, but that those in power were not expected to discuss or do anything to improve the situation: the heavily racist outcomes of the war on drugs, racially disparate education funding+outcomes, etc etc etc were off-limits for 'polite' conversation. The current thinking is that you have to acknowledge race to fight systemic racism.
    - odessacubbage 6y ago
      i also think there is a general concern that 'acknowledging race' is what led to racist outcomes being systematized in the first place. the current thinking also seems to struggle to concretely articulate what it's goals actually are, is success defined as proportional representation across interests and industries? is it 'majority minority' in leadership roles? will these mandates be adjusted as outcomes and demographics predictably shift? and maybe most concerning, are all problems considered on equal merits or is there antipathy and an underlying belief in deserved suffering as atonement for intergenerational guilt?
- cubano 6y ago
  > Yes, things like "Asians are good at math" is racist, even if it's a positive stereotype. So what would be the proper way to describe an ethnic group that, when examined purely statistically, really has performed well above average in mathamatics? Do we simple never acknowledge that such differences exist, as some people have signalled?
  - triceratops 6y ago
    > So what would be the proper way to describe an ethnic group that, when examined purely statistically, really has performed well above average in mathamatics? Exactly the way you said it. "Statistically speaking, controlling (or not controlling) for relevant factors foo, bar, and baz, group X outperforms other groups such Y, and Z in tests of skill A". Which isn't the same thing as "X is good at A". "X is good at A" is a meaningless statement. It's devoid of context and prone to overgeneralization. It's not useful for anything.
    - cubano 6y ago
      Don't we use statistics exactly like that in, say, sports to prove one team has a better offense or defense than another? Or even statistics like that to show what cloud hosting company overall has the best uptime? I guess your saying that for any group, statistics are "not useful for anything" I'm genuinely somewhat dumbfounded by this apparent difference.
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        Sports might be useful. Do you see the difference between, "The Patriots have statistically scored more yards per game than average." Vs. "Patriots team members are good at scoring yards." Vs. "You are on the Patriots, therefore you are good at scoring yards" In aggregate, the players perform in some positive or negative way, but you can't just apply that statistic to any individual player or even say that the players are unusually good at that thing. Maybe they have a great coaching staff, maybe they are cheating, maybe they have a few star players who push up the statistics.
pessimizer 6y ago
It's such a common assumption that when you imply that the children of wealthy African immigrants might not have any more insight into the culture and experiences of black US descendants of slaves than the median US white person, you're reflexively accused of being racist. It's racist to believe black people are fungible. We wouldn't expect the child of an Italian diplomat to give us insight into the experience of growing up on Staten Island. edit: tbh, it's usually a pragmatic belief. It's easier to convince upper-middle class black people that what you want to do is good for black people in general (because their culture largely overlaps yours and they share your values), and wealthy black people and average black people look the same in pictures. edit2: I hate to come back to this, but just look up Ray Nagin and his response to the hurricane that ultimately washed all of the black people out of New Orleans for an idea of the character of a lot black leadership in the south, and its total disconnection from any working class awareness. Just looked him up now to see what happened to him since and was not surprised.
- bigbubba 6y ago
  Does Ray Nagin really support your point? From what I know he was born in New Orleans with working class parents. Also the demographics section of the wiki page for New Orleans doesn't seem ti support your claim that Katrina washed all the black people out of the city. It was 61.9% black in 1990 and 60.2% black in 2010.
tyingq 6y ago
I'd agree if I'd made the statement about one specific person. The idea that more diversity of race across a leadership group is more likely to include diverse experiences, to me, is a different type of assumption that would almost always be true.
- sojournerc 6y ago
  Hypothetically, a group of people of different races grow up in the same small town in the same economic conditions, go to the same schools etc. Is race still a good indicator of diversity of experiences? Not at all. Skin color is a poor proxy for diversity of thought or experience. We could instead just treat people as individuals and not draw broad conclusions on skin color.
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    > Hypothetically, a group of people of different races grow up in the same small town in the same economic conditions, go to the same schools etc. Is race still a good indicator of diversity of experiences? Not at all. Even more so in that scenario, I'd think. If you've eliminated all the other variables, race would be the only differentiator of experience in that grouping. (Of course, the reality of the non-hypothetical world is that people of different races tend to also have different schools, economic conditions, etc.)
    - sojournerc 6y ago
      To clarify your position, in the hypothetical, you believe two people with the same color skin will have identical experiences because of their race? I don't think that's the case at all. Again, skin color is a poor signifier for experience, and while it's good to acknowledge that person's life is impacted by their race, thinking that race is the only differentiator is silly. Individuals are determined by more than their level of melatonin.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        > Again, skin color is a poor signifier for experience... I suspect people of color would tend to disagree. It's likely a black person will have experiences not shared by your average white person, just like Americans may have experiences unique to them, or men, or disabled people, or people with any other characteristic that distinguishes them from others. > thinking that race is the only differentiator is silly No one said only. > Individuals are determined by more than their level of melatonin. Sure, but your hypothetical was "what if those things were gone?"

Pfhreak 6y ago

Yes, things like "Asians are good at math" is racist, even if it's a positive stereotype. That said, the parent poster said that many leadership positions, plural, were filled by people of color. I think it's probably reasonable to say that a community of many political leaders of color are more familiar with systemic racism. These are folks who specifically choose to get involved in politics and leadership, and likely represent fairly large constituencies. It's not unreasonable to assume that they broadly have experience or are able to communicate with their communities that have experience with systems that negatively impact people of color.

andi999 6y ago
So I do not really understand this. (To me having racial categories is racist already, but this seems to be fine/non racist in the US). So would a statement like 'Asians perform significantly higher (by so and so amounts of standard deviation) on Math tests than Caucasians' a racist stereotype while still beiing a fact?
- Aunche 6y ago
  It's not racist to explain why the majority of your quants are Asian. It is racist to hire a quant because they're Asian. In politics, people tend to do the latter.
- Pfhreak 6y ago
  Good question. There's a big difference between, "These are the observed results" and "These people are inherently X". And especially different than, "Person is Y, therefore they are good/bad at X". The first statement is open ended, it keeps the door open to systemic factors outside of race that might correlate with race. It also doesn't suggest that everyone of a particular group is better/worse at something. The second statement says that there's something intrinsic to that everyone of that race. It sets up expectations for a group of people. Maybe you are an Asian who isn't good at math? How does that make you feel? How will you be impacted by other people making assumptions about you? The third statement is applying stereotypes to individuals, which is just never going to be a good idea. The differences between the first and second statements are subtle, but important.
  - andi999 6y ago
    So then you are saying the statement 'Asians are good at math' is not the short version of 'we observed that asians are better at math then other races' but the short version of 'Asians are inherently better at math' and therefor racist?
    - ethbr0 6y ago
      The generic "Asians are good at math", in this context, is probably extended as "We observed that certain groups of Asians are good at math, therefore, all Asians are good at math." And as parent pointed out, it's the leap from observed results to expectations about a racial group (or many groups in this case) that makes it racist.
- sdenton4 6y ago
  The US writ-large tried the 'color blindness' approach for a long time. The general effect was that shit kept rolling downhill, but that those in power were not expected to discuss or do anything to improve the situation: the heavily racist outcomes of the war on drugs, racially disparate education funding+outcomes, etc etc etc were off-limits for 'polite' conversation. The current thinking is that you have to acknowledge race to fight systemic racism.
  - odessacubbage 6y ago
    i also think there is a general concern that 'acknowledging race' is what led to racist outcomes being systematized in the first place. the current thinking also seems to struggle to concretely articulate what it's goals actually are, is success defined as proportional representation across interests and industries? is it 'majority minority' in leadership roles? will these mandates be adjusted as outcomes and demographics predictably shift? and maybe most concerning, are all problems considered on equal merits or is there antipathy and an underlying belief in deserved suffering as atonement for intergenerational guilt?
cubano 6y ago
> Yes, things like "Asians are good at math" is racist, even if it's a positive stereotype. So what would be the proper way to describe an ethnic group that, when examined purely statistically, really has performed well above average in mathamatics? Do we simple never acknowledge that such differences exist, as some people have signalled?
- triceratops 6y ago
  > So what would be the proper way to describe an ethnic group that, when examined purely statistically, really has performed well above average in mathamatics? Exactly the way you said it. "Statistically speaking, controlling (or not controlling) for relevant factors foo, bar, and baz, group X outperforms other groups such Y, and Z in tests of skill A". Which isn't the same thing as "X is good at A". "X is good at A" is a meaningless statement. It's devoid of context and prone to overgeneralization. It's not useful for anything.
  - cubano 6y ago
    Don't we use statistics exactly like that in, say, sports to prove one team has a better offense or defense than another? Or even statistics like that to show what cloud hosting company overall has the best uptime? I guess your saying that for any group, statistics are "not useful for anything" I'm genuinely somewhat dumbfounded by this apparent difference.
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      Sports might be useful. Do you see the difference between, "The Patriots have statistically scored more yards per game than average." Vs. "Patriots team members are good at scoring yards." Vs. "You are on the Patriots, therefore you are good at scoring yards" In aggregate, the players perform in some positive or negative way, but you can't just apply that statistic to any individual player or even say that the players are unusually good at that thing. Maybe they have a great coaching staff, maybe they are cheating, maybe they have a few star players who push up the statistics.

pessimizer 6y ago

It's such a common assumption that when you imply that the children of wealthy African immigrants might not have any more insight into the culture and experiences of black US descendants of slaves than the median US white person, you're reflexively accused of being racist. It's racist to believe black people are fungible. We wouldn't expect the child of an Italian diplomat to give us insight into the experience of growing up on Staten Island. edit: tbh, it's usually a pragmatic belief. It's easier to convince upper-middle class black people that what you want to do is good for black people in general (because their culture largely overlaps yours and they share your values), and wealthy black people and average black people look the same in pictures. edit2: I hate to come back to this, but just look up Ray Nagin and his response to the hurricane that ultimately washed all of the black people out of New Orleans for an idea of the character of a lot black leadership in the south, and its total disconnection from any working class awareness. Just looked him up now to see what happened to him since and was not surprised.

bigbubba 6y ago
Does Ray Nagin really support your point? From what I know he was born in New Orleans with working class parents. Also the demographics section of the wiki page for New Orleans doesn't seem ti support your claim that Katrina washed all the black people out of the city. It was 61.9% black in 1990 and 60.2% black in 2010.

tyingq 6y ago

I'd agree if I'd made the statement about one specific person. The idea that more diversity of race across a leadership group is more likely to include diverse experiences, to me, is a different type of assumption that would almost always be true.

sojournerc 6y ago
Hypothetically, a group of people of different races grow up in the same small town in the same economic conditions, go to the same schools etc. Is race still a good indicator of diversity of experiences? Not at all. Skin color is a poor proxy for diversity of thought or experience. We could instead just treat people as individuals and not draw broad conclusions on skin color.
- ceejayoz 6y ago
  > Hypothetically, a group of people of different races grow up in the same small town in the same economic conditions, go to the same schools etc. Is race still a good indicator of diversity of experiences? Not at all. Even more so in that scenario, I'd think. If you've eliminated all the other variables, race would be the only differentiator of experience in that grouping. (Of course, the reality of the non-hypothetical world is that people of different races tend to also have different schools, economic conditions, etc.)
  - sojournerc 6y ago
    To clarify your position, in the hypothetical, you believe two people with the same color skin will have identical experiences because of their race? I don't think that's the case at all. Again, skin color is a poor signifier for experience, and while it's good to acknowledge that person's life is impacted by their race, thinking that race is the only differentiator is silly. Individuals are determined by more than their level of melatonin.
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      > Again, skin color is a poor signifier for experience... I suspect people of color would tend to disagree. It's likely a black person will have experiences not shared by your average white person, just like Americans may have experiences unique to them, or men, or disabled people, or people with any other characteristic that distinguishes them from others. > thinking that race is the only differentiator is silly No one said only. > Individuals are determined by more than their level of melatonin. Sure, but your hypothetical was "what if those things were gone?"