4 ms·

Do you not see how the two go hand-in-hand, your "gay man married to a woman because it's illegal to be gay in his country" and "it's common to assume opposite

Do you not see how the two go hand-in-hand, your "gay man married to a woman because it's illegal to be gay in his country" and "it's common to assume opposite gender"? I don't know what malice means to you, but I can tell you on my behalf and on behalf of many queer people (I won't claim to speak for all, but I know I speak for many), you should not assume the opposite gender for the partner, and it is unnecessary to defend someone who makes the mistake. Ultimately, it _is_ a factual error, and it is invalidating.

forty 6y ago
What I meant by malice is someone whose point would be "it's abnormal to be married to someone of the same gender" vs someone assuming the most common case without holding any judgement on whether it's normal or good, and without the intent of hurting anyone (I do understand that it can still hurt/vex some people, as anything else you can say with the best intent, but I still think intent does count)
- gugagore 6y ago
  I agree intent counts. You start by saying "You might be seeing sexism where there is none.". To me, our comments are summarized with: You: "it might not be sexism because people often assume heterosexuality, but the statement could apply to a partner of any gender" Me: "well then that's heterosexist" You: People can make the heterosexual assumption without bad intentions, so it's not heterosexist either" And that is true only for a narrow definition of sexism and heterosexism. Do you want to give a different name to the assumption that people are straight? Do you want to give a different name to the assumption that someone's wife isn't on board with his technical pursuits? I already have a name for those patterns, heterosexism and sexism, and I can grasp the nuances and subtleties of different forms. What is YOUR intent? To reserve those words for cases where there is ill intent?
  - forty 6y ago
    Ah I had never heard "heterosexism", I learned a new word. I just checked a bunch of definitions, and I would now use "heterocentrism" for presumption of heterosexuallity - it's possible to presume that without thinking it's the norm, but just because in practice in many places it's more common. Just like when I hear someone named Daniel(le) I assume it's a man because I know more man Daniel than woman, but I do not think there is anything wrong or abnormal with a woman named that way. So yes I would kind of reserve sexism (or heterosexism now) for cases when the remark carries some negativity related to a given gender (or sexual orientation). And I still stick with my original impression that OP did not carry any negativity towards women (at least we can fairly give them "reasonable doubt"), but that they were just making a joke about living with someone else in general. Sorry for the long thread and I hope I have not offended you. I'm always interested in having other points of views so I like this kind of discussion. Also English is not my native language, so there might have been things lost in translation.

forty 6y ago

What I meant by malice is someone whose point would be "it's abnormal to be married to someone of the same gender" vs someone assuming the most common case without holding any judgement on whether it's normal or good, and without the intent of hurting anyone (I do understand that it can still hurt/vex some people, as anything else you can say with the best intent, but I still think intent does count)

gugagore 6y ago
I agree intent counts. You start by saying "You might be seeing sexism where there is none.". To me, our comments are summarized with: You: "it might not be sexism because people often assume heterosexuality, but the statement could apply to a partner of any gender" Me: "well then that's heterosexist" You: People can make the heterosexual assumption without bad intentions, so it's not heterosexist either" And that is true only for a narrow definition of sexism and heterosexism. Do you want to give a different name to the assumption that people are straight? Do you want to give a different name to the assumption that someone's wife isn't on board with his technical pursuits? I already have a name for those patterns, heterosexism and sexism, and I can grasp the nuances and subtleties of different forms. What is YOUR intent? To reserve those words for cases where there is ill intent?
- forty 6y ago
  Ah I had never heard "heterosexism", I learned a new word. I just checked a bunch of definitions, and I would now use "heterocentrism" for presumption of heterosexuallity - it's possible to presume that without thinking it's the norm, but just because in practice in many places it's more common. Just like when I hear someone named Daniel(le) I assume it's a man because I know more man Daniel than woman, but I do not think there is anything wrong or abnormal with a woman named that way. So yes I would kind of reserve sexism (or heterosexism now) for cases when the remark carries some negativity related to a given gender (or sexual orientation). And I still stick with my original impression that OP did not carry any negativity towards women (at least we can fairly give them "reasonable doubt"), but that they were just making a joke about living with someone else in general. Sorry for the long thread and I hope I have not offended you. I'm always interested in having other points of views so I like this kind of discussion. Also English is not my native language, so there might have been things lost in translation.