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When somewhere as famously corrupt as New Orleans bans this stuff there's a part of me that can't help but wonder if it's due to the corruption, not in spite of

When somewhere as famously corrupt as New Orleans bans this stuff there's a part of me that can't help but wonder if it's due to the corruption, not in spite of it. In other words the people at the top are worried that they'll get caught up in ways that can't be hidden or denied (because it'll be outside contractors running these things most likely) and so they want to make sure it never comes to pass. I wish I wasn't so cynical about this as I do think the ban is a good thing in general.

tyingq 6y ago
That's certainly a concern, though New Orleans is a city with quite a lot of people of color in leadership positions. So the leaders are familiar with how those tools would most likely be used in a disproportionate way against minorities. There was also a lot of highly publicized examples of the police corruption and abuse during and after Katrina. There's a DOJ report here: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/crt/legacy/2011/03/17/nopd_report.pdf https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/crt/legacy/2011/... I'm hoping those things were also part of why it was easier to pass these sort of preventative laws.
- dpflan 6y ago
  This assessment makes sense, many large Southern cities have this same demographic and hence public leadership profile. This is a strong step that may signal other cities (if not already: maybe Atlanta, Charlotte) to follow suit. That I think would be a boon for the future because of the ways such technology can be used against minorities as you point out.
- selimthegrim 6y ago
  The previous mayor, Mitch Landrieu, was letting Palantir test their systems here. There are ANPRs at most entry points into the city. I personally have zero surprise at Gebru's freaking out after having lived here.
- sidlls 6y ago
  It's sort of assumed that all people of color experience the various injustices and systemic racism we still have in similar ways, and so they'll all collectively "understand" this sort of thing better, as if they're all interchangeable with one another in some sense. It's a bit repugnant. A similar sentiment is expressed with respect to politics in some circles: as if people of color have more political acumen and agency than others by virtue of the racism they might have experienced.
  - tyingq 6y ago
    "It's a bit repugnant." Wow, really? Suggesting that a more diverse leadership team would better understand the potential downside of a police state is now distasteful?
    - sojournerc 6y ago
      Assuming knowledge or opinion based on skin color is a very simple example of racist prejudice. Assuming that a person being black means they must have certain experiences and ideas is wrong, even if the assumption isn't negative.
      - Pfhreak 6y ago
        Yes, things like "Asians are good at math" is racist, even if it's a positive stereotype. That said, the parent poster said that many leadership positions, plural, were filled by people of color. I think it's probably reasonable to say that a community of many political leaders of color are more familiar with systemic racism. These are folks who specifically choose to get involved in politics and leadership, and likely represent fairly large constituencies. It's not unreasonable to assume that they broadly have experience or are able to communicate with their communities that have experience with systems that negatively impact people of color.
        andi999 6y ago
        So I do not really understand this. (To me having racial categories is racist already, but this seems to be fine/non racist in the US). So would a statement like 'Asians perform significantly higher (by so and so amounts of standard deviation) on Math tests than Caucasians' a racist stereotype while still beiing a fact?
- sjs382 6y ago
  Another detail: The police force is 50+% black, fwiw. Not saying that there isn't systemic racism, but there's proper racial representation on the force. (Gender equality us another story, but I expect that they have a lot of trouble recruiting women for the job)
- pzone 6y ago
  Why assume that these technologies would increase corruption rather than reduce it? Outsourcing work to an arms-length tech firm as opposed to potentially corrupt officers could be helpful in this case. Isn’t reducing crime in one of the most unsafe cities in the country more helpful to POC living there than making moves to dodge accidental algorithmic bias? What are the expected costs and benefits here?
cowpig 6y ago
Is your cynicism based on evidence specific to this event? Because this kind of cynicism is self-fulfilling: if you don't believe anything good ever happens, then nothing ever will. So I feel it's important to actively avoid defaulting to it. My anecdotal evidence: I just had a conversation with someone who was involved in the push for this to happen and at least that person (and purportedly, the organization they're involved with) is an idealistic programmer, and not a corrupt cop.

tyingq 6y ago

That's certainly a concern, though New Orleans is a city with quite a lot of people of color in leadership positions. So the leaders are familiar with how those tools would most likely be used in a disproportionate way against minorities. There was also a lot of highly publicized examples of the police corruption and abuse during and after Katrina. There's a DOJ report here: https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/crt/legacy/2011/03/17/nopd_report.pdf https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/crt/legacy/2011/... I'm hoping those things were also part of why it was easier to pass these sort of preventative laws.

dpflan 6y ago
This assessment makes sense, many large Southern cities have this same demographic and hence public leadership profile. This is a strong step that may signal other cities (if not already: maybe Atlanta, Charlotte) to follow suit. That I think would be a boon for the future because of the ways such technology can be used against minorities as you point out.
selimthegrim 6y ago
The previous mayor, Mitch Landrieu, was letting Palantir test their systems here. There are ANPRs at most entry points into the city. I personally have zero surprise at Gebru's freaking out after having lived here.
sidlls 6y ago
It's sort of assumed that all people of color experience the various injustices and systemic racism we still have in similar ways, and so they'll all collectively "understand" this sort of thing better, as if they're all interchangeable with one another in some sense. It's a bit repugnant. A similar sentiment is expressed with respect to politics in some circles: as if people of color have more political acumen and agency than others by virtue of the racism they might have experienced.
- tyingq 6y ago
  "It's a bit repugnant." Wow, really? Suggesting that a more diverse leadership team would better understand the potential downside of a police state is now distasteful?
  - sojournerc 6y ago
    Assuming knowledge or opinion based on skin color is a very simple example of racist prejudice. Assuming that a person being black means they must have certain experiences and ideas is wrong, even if the assumption isn't negative.
    - Pfhreak 6y ago
      Yes, things like "Asians are good at math" is racist, even if it's a positive stereotype. That said, the parent poster said that many leadership positions, plural, were filled by people of color. I think it's probably reasonable to say that a community of many political leaders of color are more familiar with systemic racism. These are folks who specifically choose to get involved in politics and leadership, and likely represent fairly large constituencies. It's not unreasonable to assume that they broadly have experience or are able to communicate with their communities that have experience with systems that negatively impact people of color.
      - andi999 6y ago
        So I do not really understand this. (To me having racial categories is racist already, but this seems to be fine/non racist in the US). So would a statement like 'Asians perform significantly higher (by so and so amounts of standard deviation) on Math tests than Caucasians' a racist stereotype while still beiing a fact?
sjs382 6y ago
Another detail: The police force is 50+% black, fwiw. Not saying that there isn't systemic racism, but there's proper racial representation on the force. (Gender equality us another story, but I expect that they have a lot of trouble recruiting women for the job)
pzone 6y ago
Why assume that these technologies would increase corruption rather than reduce it? Outsourcing work to an arms-length tech firm as opposed to potentially corrupt officers could be helpful in this case. Isn’t reducing crime in one of the most unsafe cities in the country more helpful to POC living there than making moves to dodge accidental algorithmic bias? What are the expected costs and benefits here?

cowpig 6y ago

Is your cynicism based on evidence specific to this event? Because this kind of cynicism is self-fulfilling: if you don't believe anything good ever happens, then nothing ever will. So I feel it's important to actively avoid defaulting to it. My anecdotal evidence: I just had a conversation with someone who was involved in the push for this to happen and at least that person (and purportedly, the organization they're involved with) is an idealistic programmer, and not a corrupt cop.