6 ms·

Couldn't you use a PC box built for less than $600. Sound does not require near the bandwidth of video, and I am sure you could get a decent rig setup for that

by eggy 6y ago

Couldn't you use a PC box built for less than $600. Sound does not require near the bandwidth of video, and I am sure you could get a decent rig setup for that price. I have been doing low-latency audio on Windows for over a decade. I have used Ableton on Windows with my Novation X-Station 25 from 2005, and I play with Extempore[1] for livecoding, and Windows has been more than adequate. I used the X-Station as my soundcard at the time, because it was better than my cheap PC at the time. I also work for the Entertainment division of an engineering company and we do (did before COVID) lots of mechanical/structural work for Broadway. [1] https://extemporelang.github.io/ https://extemporelang.github.io/

yummypaint 6y ago
Yes, Im kindof baffled why they insist on a mac mini with such a tight budget. There are linux options too
- dagmx 6y ago
  Linux is not really an option. There are very few DAWs with support, next to no drivers for common hardware, and next to no support for popular VSTs. Linux is not a good platform for audio work.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    No drivers are needed for "common hardware", because iOS forced most "common hardware" to be driver free i.e. actually compliant with the USB audio standard. It is true that if you're (still) using PCI devices, drivers can be an issue, but there are several high end companies, including RME, with PCI device support on Linux. Ardour, Mixbus, Bitwig and Reaper all run natively on Linux. Yes, that's a tiny subset of those available on proprietary platforms. "Popular VSTs" feels like a wierd thing to say. I would doubt there is enough overlap in people's plugin use to every really create particularly popular ones. There are thousands of plugins available on Linux, both libre, gratis and proprietary. And even if I do not recommend the approach, many (not all) Windows VST plugins can be used on Linux. Yes, you cannot use plugins from companies that choose not support Linux without some hurdle hopping, and yes, that means that "well known" and not-easily replaceable plugins like those from Izotope and Native Instruments are generally out of reach.
    - dagmx 6y ago
      A lot of hardware still has "drivers" (more just hardware specific software) for their devices though that only support Mac/windows. The bigger point isn't that audio production isn't possible on Linux, it's that you have to make significant compromises to make it work. I count switching DAW as a significant compromise. The cost difference between a Mac mini and Linux hardware of similar performance isn't worth those compromises to many creatives, outside of CG
      - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
        >I count switching DAW as a significant compromise. That's why Ardour runs on more platforms that any other DAW, so you don't have to make that compromise :)
- simonh 6y ago
  I think there are several dimensions to this. These are mission critical systems with extremely high uptime expectations. Therefore using highly standardised easily available identical replacement parts with solid vendor support is a must. There are probably several Apple Stores within easy reach of Broadway and Apple Care will get you rapid support and repair if needed. Another aspect is that the audio stack on MacOS is truly outstanding, with a whole host of professional audio applications and utilities on the platform. Hardware drivers are up to date and also well supported. Connectivity is also well supported by audio hardware vendors. Finally Mac Minis have had a stable hardware form factor for well over a decade. If you go for a small form factor generic Pc system there’s no guarantee anything like it will even exist a year or even 6 months later. Hardware specs and specific component choices change with the breeze as availability and relative pricing fluctuate continuously.
  - eggy 6y ago
    Those seem like good points, however you can build a PC with name brand parts and keep them consistent and going for a decade. AMD has made sure you don't need a new motherboard everytime they move to a new generation of CPU compared with Intel for example. Yes, Apple stores are all over, but rapid support and repair are not inexpensive, which was one of the arguments for why they chose Mac Minis. FTR, I am interested in a Mac Mini for my children's main home computer and also for streaming on our TV. It's pretty neat with the M1 processor! I have a 2011 iMac 27 with an AMD HD6970M with 1 gb (possibly 2gb?), and I still do a lot of stuff on it. I program graphics on it, and play with audio.
    - palimpsests 6y ago
      building a PC with name brand parts does absolutely nothing to address the critical factor mentioned by the GP: > Another aspect is that the audio stack on MacOS is truly outstanding, with a whole host of professional audio applications and utilities on the platform. Hardware drivers are up to date and also well supported. Connectivity is also well supported by audio hardware vendors.
      - 6y ago
- PragmaticPulp 6y ago
  It’s the software. With consumer and professional software, it’s never as simple as switching to Windows or Linux to get the job done when your entire back catalog of work and the training for the entire team is invested in a specific software package.
- blymd 6y ago
  There's zero upside to messing around with Linux. Software is one of the biggest issues.
avianlyric 6y ago
My understanding of this has been that OSX has always had much lower audio latency than Windows or Linux. Apple have put quite a bit of effort into making their audio sub-systems both performant and reliable. Something that isn’t true on Windows and Linux at the moment. I also assume that part of if is driven by audio professionals using Macs elsewhere, and you don’t want to be using an unfamiliar system when running a live performance. That’s the one place where “just let me Google that” doesn’t fly.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  > My understanding of this has been that OSX has always had much lower audio latency than Windows or Linux. Your understanding is wrong, at least with respect to Linux (which technically has lower latency than macOS/OSX has ever had). One can debate the ease of use (and to be fair, macOS will likely win), but from a technical perspective, if you want the absolute lowest latency, Linux is the system to use. At least ... that was true for PCI audio devices. At ardour.org we've been playing around with an M1 mini, and the ease with which it gets to 16 sample buffer size with a stock USB audio device is astounding and envy-inducing.
- vultour 6y ago
  Does Mac have a built-in low latency system? The Windows ones are terrible but I don't think anyone would use them anyway when there is ASIO.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    It does. CoreAudio gets the job done.
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
The software is the issue. If the entire team has been trained on and built their back catalog of work in a specific software package, switching to a different platform may not be an option.

by eggy 6y ago

yummypaint 6y ago

Yes, Im kindof baffled why they insist on a mac mini with such a tight budget. There are linux options too

dagmx 6y ago
Linux is not really an option. There are very few DAWs with support, next to no drivers for common hardware, and next to no support for popular VSTs. Linux is not a good platform for audio work.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  No drivers are needed for "common hardware", because iOS forced most "common hardware" to be driver free i.e. actually compliant with the USB audio standard. It is true that if you're (still) using PCI devices, drivers can be an issue, but there are several high end companies, including RME, with PCI device support on Linux. Ardour, Mixbus, Bitwig and Reaper all run natively on Linux. Yes, that's a tiny subset of those available on proprietary platforms. "Popular VSTs" feels like a wierd thing to say. I would doubt there is enough overlap in people's plugin use to every really create particularly popular ones. There are thousands of plugins available on Linux, both libre, gratis and proprietary. And even if I do not recommend the approach, many (not all) Windows VST plugins can be used on Linux. Yes, you cannot use plugins from companies that choose not support Linux without some hurdle hopping, and yes, that means that "well known" and not-easily replaceable plugins like those from Izotope and Native Instruments are generally out of reach.
  - dagmx 6y ago
    A lot of hardware still has "drivers" (more just hardware specific software) for their devices though that only support Mac/windows. The bigger point isn't that audio production isn't possible on Linux, it's that you have to make significant compromises to make it work. I count switching DAW as a significant compromise. The cost difference between a Mac mini and Linux hardware of similar performance isn't worth those compromises to many creatives, outside of CG
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
      >I count switching DAW as a significant compromise. That's why Ardour runs on more platforms that any other DAW, so you don't have to make that compromise :)
simonh 6y ago
I think there are several dimensions to this. These are mission critical systems with extremely high uptime expectations. Therefore using highly standardised easily available identical replacement parts with solid vendor support is a must. There are probably several Apple Stores within easy reach of Broadway and Apple Care will get you rapid support and repair if needed. Another aspect is that the audio stack on MacOS is truly outstanding, with a whole host of professional audio applications and utilities on the platform. Hardware drivers are up to date and also well supported. Connectivity is also well supported by audio hardware vendors. Finally Mac Minis have had a stable hardware form factor for well over a decade. If you go for a small form factor generic Pc system there’s no guarantee anything like it will even exist a year or even 6 months later. Hardware specs and specific component choices change with the breeze as availability and relative pricing fluctuate continuously.
- eggy 6y ago
  Those seem like good points, however you can build a PC with name brand parts and keep them consistent and going for a decade. AMD has made sure you don't need a new motherboard everytime they move to a new generation of CPU compared with Intel for example. Yes, Apple stores are all over, but rapid support and repair are not inexpensive, which was one of the arguments for why they chose Mac Minis. FTR, I am interested in a Mac Mini for my children's main home computer and also for streaming on our TV. It's pretty neat with the M1 processor! I have a 2011 iMac 27 with an AMD HD6970M with 1 gb (possibly 2gb?), and I still do a lot of stuff on it. I program graphics on it, and play with audio.
  - palimpsests 6y ago
    building a PC with name brand parts does absolutely nothing to address the critical factor mentioned by the GP: > Another aspect is that the audio stack on MacOS is truly outstanding, with a whole host of professional audio applications and utilities on the platform. Hardware drivers are up to date and also well supported. Connectivity is also well supported by audio hardware vendors.
    - 6y ago
PragmaticPulp 6y ago
It’s the software. With consumer and professional software, it’s never as simple as switching to Windows or Linux to get the job done when your entire back catalog of work and the training for the entire team is invested in a specific software package.
blymd 6y ago
There's zero upside to messing around with Linux. Software is one of the biggest issues.

avianlyric 6y ago

My understanding of this has been that OSX has always had much lower audio latency than Windows or Linux. Apple have put quite a bit of effort into making their audio sub-systems both performant and reliable. Something that isn’t true on Windows and Linux at the moment. I also assume that part of if is driven by audio professionals using Macs elsewhere, and you don’t want to be using an unfamiliar system when running a live performance. That’s the one place where “just let me Google that” doesn’t fly.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
> My understanding of this has been that OSX has always had much lower audio latency than Windows or Linux. Your understanding is wrong, at least with respect to Linux (which technically has lower latency than macOS/OSX has ever had). One can debate the ease of use (and to be fair, macOS will likely win), but from a technical perspective, if you want the absolute lowest latency, Linux is the system to use. At least ... that was true for PCI audio devices. At ardour.org we've been playing around with an M1 mini, and the ease with which it gets to 16 sample buffer size with a stock USB audio device is astounding and envy-inducing.
vultour 6y ago
Does Mac have a built-in low latency system? The Windows ones are terrible but I don't think anyone would use them anyway when there is ASIO.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  It does. CoreAudio gets the job done.

PragmaticPulp 6y ago

The software is the issue. If the entire team has been trained on and built their back catalog of work in a specific software package, switching to a different platform may not be an option.