4 ms·

Re Scotland, I suspect that the EU made some concessions to make them leaving less likely. On the whole the EU doesn't like countries becoming independent (Cata

Re Scotland, I suspect that the EU made some concessions to make them leaving less likely. On the whole the EU doesn't like countries becoming independent (Catalonia, for example) of their parent country. Coherence is key for the EU

breakfastduck 6y ago
Really relevant point. EU wants deeper integration, the last thing it needs is a second independent nation with a land border to the UK.
- lottin 6y ago
  That doesn't make any sense. An independent Scotland would likely join the EU and thus become more integrated with it.
  - breakfastduck 6y ago
    Yeah but it would be really disruptive to the EU. I imagine they just want to get on with usual business now brexit is 'done with'.
    - Rexxar 6y ago
      Why would it be more disruptive that any other country that have integrated the union before ?
      - breakfastduck 6y ago
        Because the new country joining has a land border with the UK which wont be legislated for whatsoever in the brexit trade deal.
        rndmio 6y ago
        So? The EU had other land borders with non EU countries. There are 25 road crossings between England and Scotland compared to 300 between NI and ROI and no GFA to sustain.
        breakfastduck 6y ago
        So it creates a lot of admin work for the EU and disruption to their business as usual. No need to be so hostile, just making the point.
        toyg 6y ago
        It doesn't create any new admin work, unless Scotland tries to get some special deal. In which case they might well reuse the Irish framework. It would be a walk in the park and a total propaganda victory for the EU. The only real obstacle was the "meddling in internal state affairs" argument, but that's just gone out of the window now that the UK is a third country. Now Scotland is more like Kosovo or Boznia was - a territory that would be a useful addition to the EU market once it's dislodged from the controlling entity.
        breakfastduck 6y ago
        Scotland would need a special deal though, at least for a reasonable transition period. I actually think Scotland should have its own independence, so I'd be happy to see it. Would be a massive arse ache for everyone involved, though - probably worse than brexit based on how deeply integrated the England and Scotland are.
        toyg 6y ago
        > worse than brexit based on how deeply integrated the England and Scotland are I think you are underestimating how much the UK and the EU were effectively integrated.
        brmgb 6y ago
    - throwaway2245 6y ago
      The EU continues to have a "Common Travel Area" agreement and land border between Ireland (in the EU) and the UK (now not). It would not be disruptive to extend the existing rules to an independent Scotland.
sleavey 6y ago
I completely disagree. The EU remained silent during the Scottish independence referendum in 2014 because they didn't want to be seen to be publicly undermining the UK government, but since relations have soured they've been pretty open to say that Scotland would be welcomed back into the EU and that it already meets the requirements. Not to say that Scotland rejoining the EU would be a massive moral victory for the EU over England.
- breakfastduck 6y ago
  Disagree with your final point. The last thing the EU wants is disruption - ever. They want clear, stable operations backed by huge bureaucracy. They'll be glad Brexit is over so they can just get on with BAU. The ordeal of an independent Scotland forming and applying to join would be a huge disruption.
  - Someone 6y ago
    The EU may be a bureaucracy, but it isn’t a huge one. Its budget is too small for that. https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/eu-budget/transparency/fact-check_en#howbigistheeubudget https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/eu-budget/transparency/fa...: “At some €148 billion (2019 figure), the EU budget is in fact smaller than the budgets of Austria or Belgium. This was a tiny fraction (2%) of the combined national budgets of all EU countries (€7,524 billion) in 2019.”
    - breakfastduck 6y ago
      The EU bureaucracy is at a higher level, like the Euro Working Group made up of financial ministers from EU countries. There is a LOT of red tape involved in getting stuff done.
- LoSboccacc 6y ago
  > it already meets the requirement I wonder whether that is actually true, isn't the state budget coming in significant part from the UK? I wonder how would that be stacked against Maastricht treaty parameters
antr 6y ago
Your comment is the exact definition of a false premise: the use of an incorrect proposition (Catalonia is or was a country) that forms the basis of an argument (the EU doesn't like countries becoming independent).

breakfastduck 6y ago

Really relevant point. EU wants deeper integration, the last thing it needs is a second independent nation with a land border to the UK.

lottin 6y ago
That doesn't make any sense. An independent Scotland would likely join the EU and thus become more integrated with it.
- breakfastduck 6y ago
  Yeah but it would be really disruptive to the EU. I imagine they just want to get on with usual business now brexit is 'done with'.
  - Rexxar 6y ago
    Why would it be more disruptive that any other country that have integrated the union before ?
    - breakfastduck 6y ago
      Because the new country joining has a land border with the UK which wont be legislated for whatsoever in the brexit trade deal.
      - rndmio 6y ago
        So? The EU had other land borders with non EU countries. There are 25 road crossings between England and Scotland compared to 300 between NI and ROI and no GFA to sustain.
        breakfastduck 6y ago
        So it creates a lot of admin work for the EU and disruption to their business as usual. No need to be so hostile, just making the point.
        toyg 6y ago
        It doesn't create any new admin work, unless Scotland tries to get some special deal. In which case they might well reuse the Irish framework. It would be a walk in the park and a total propaganda victory for the EU. The only real obstacle was the "meddling in internal state affairs" argument, but that's just gone out of the window now that the UK is a third country. Now Scotland is more like Kosovo or Boznia was - a territory that would be a useful addition to the EU market once it's dislodged from the controlling entity.
        breakfastduck 6y ago
        Scotland would need a special deal though, at least for a reasonable transition period. I actually think Scotland should have its own independence, so I'd be happy to see it. Would be a massive arse ache for everyone involved, though - probably worse than brexit based on how deeply integrated the England and Scotland are.
        toyg 6y ago
        > worse than brexit based on how deeply integrated the England and Scotland are I think you are underestimating how much the UK and the EU were effectively integrated.
        brmgb 6y ago
  - throwaway2245 6y ago
    The EU continues to have a "Common Travel Area" agreement and land border between Ireland (in the EU) and the UK (now not). It would not be disruptive to extend the existing rules to an independent Scotland.

sleavey 6y ago

I completely disagree. The EU remained silent during the Scottish independence referendum in 2014 because they didn't want to be seen to be publicly undermining the UK government, but since relations have soured they've been pretty open to say that Scotland would be welcomed back into the EU and that it already meets the requirements. Not to say that Scotland rejoining the EU would be a massive moral victory for the EU over England.

breakfastduck 6y ago
Disagree with your final point. The last thing the EU wants is disruption - ever. They want clear, stable operations backed by huge bureaucracy. They'll be glad Brexit is over so they can just get on with BAU. The ordeal of an independent Scotland forming and applying to join would be a huge disruption.
- Someone 6y ago
  The EU may be a bureaucracy, but it isn’t a huge one. Its budget is too small for that. https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/eu-budget/transparency/fact-check_en#howbigistheeubudget https://ec.europa.eu/info/strategy/eu-budget/transparency/fa...: “At some €148 billion (2019 figure), the EU budget is in fact smaller than the budgets of Austria or Belgium. This was a tiny fraction (2%) of the combined national budgets of all EU countries (€7,524 billion) in 2019.”
  - breakfastduck 6y ago
    The EU bureaucracy is at a higher level, like the Euro Working Group made up of financial ministers from EU countries. There is a LOT of red tape involved in getting stuff done.
LoSboccacc 6y ago
> it already meets the requirement I wonder whether that is actually true, isn't the state budget coming in significant part from the UK? I wonder how would that be stacked against Maastricht treaty parameters

antr 6y ago

Your comment is the exact definition of a false premise: the use of an incorrect proposition (Catalonia is or was a country) that forms the basis of an argument (the EU doesn't like countries becoming independent).