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Services don't have tariffs anyway, and the EU single market was pretty poor when it comes to services. It has improved a bit over the last decade - and it was

Services don't have tariffs anyway, and the EU single market was pretty poor when it comes to services. It has improved a bit over the last decade - and it was a focus for the future - but the situation as it stands is there isn't much of a single services market to do a deal with anyway.

LatteLazy 6y ago
Financial services don't have tarrifs because they're totally banned in many cases. You can't offer banking services or insurance in the EU unless your regulated by an EU member or covered under a trade agreement. But a bank etc in one member country can offer them in all other member countries, that's called passporting. Right now, if you want to IPO a Germany company, your friendly Goldman Sachs banker in London can do the whole thing over email. But from 00:01CET 01/01/21, that banker will need to move to the EU, establish residency, get approval to open GoldmansEU, open it (including getting the correct training and certification and moving a tonne of money there), setup to pay taxes and abide by local and EU regs, and then call the client back. He'll sack his UK staff or try and take them. He'll stop paying UK taxes. He'll stop funding the UKs Museums and Operas and Lamboghini dealerships. Financial services for the world's largest, most developed market has been a massive boon for the UK. Its funded everything else we've done. Passporting was the core economic thing we wanted in a trade deal. Fishing and farming and manufacturing are all worth less than just banking. And we didn't get it. But we can continue to sell some cod as long as we abide by Brussels decisions so I guess I need to retrain...
- Brakenshire 6y ago
  Surely Goldman Sachs already have an office in Frankfurt. It's interesting to me what would fall foul of the new limitations. If the call is taken from someone in Frankfurt and they forward it on to someone in London, does that count? How about if they work in a team together? Or if the Frankfurt banker asks advice from someone in London. It seems difficult to draw a line there. I'm not really clear whether it's just about having a local subsidiary for compliance purposes, or whether it literally means no assistance at all, or what.
  - rvba 6y ago
    The bank still has to run according to EU rules so in the long term probably easier to hire people from EU.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    They might have an office but they don't have a bank. Why not? Because operating a bank requires a huge amount of capital and a shit tonne of regulatory compliance. Literally 10s of millions in lawyers fees alone. Per year. So no one bothers having more than 1 EU entity. Offices maybe, but not entities. Starting in a week, the London entities that all those big banks set up are useless for offering services to the rest of the EU. This is a big issue because its NOT enough to just get a PO box and register a company. You need to capitalise and regulators want to meet traders. You need to pass the local exams and comply with the local regulations. Otherwise 101 foreign banks would not would have such a big London presence, they'd just run it from their home locations (Hong Kong, New York, Singapore). For a long time, the UK has had a big advantage because the FCA were rapid and easy to satisfy. You could get a bank up and running here in just 2 years for less than 100m. Now you have to justify keeping that office when 80% of its business now needs to be done in Frankfurt, Paris, Dublin, Zurich or wherever. This all seems like a lot of fuss and a bit anti business right? The reason we all (America, Japan, EU, HK, Singapore, etc) do this is because its the only way to avoid major crises with huge knock-on effects. Capital requirements came in to avoid another sub prime bailout. The tests and training and licensing of individuals has grown up after 101 scandals, most recently the rate fixing on fx. Europe especially has learned that under regulation in finance is much more expensive than prudence. And prudence for complex, large, interconnected, opaque, big banks is pricey...
  - vr46 6y ago
    Not that easy, last client was underwriting and they cannot write any business in the EU and their attempt to get licences was rejected last time, so they’re having to run business through another company and somehow finagle paperwork to reinsure it themselves, or something. It’s not easy at all, regulations have ensured that it’s not easy.
- cameronh90 6y ago
  Financial services profit centres have continued hiring in London. The mass exodus to the EU seems to have failed to materialise. Few people in this industry seem particularly worried about brexit other than the impact it has on the wider market. Obviously everyone wishes it hadn't happened, but the consensus seems to be that it will be fine. The services that are potentially being forced to open up EU offices are mostly the cost centres, which are very commoditised anyway and have been increasingly automated over the last decade. Although the EU have said something about not being able to just have a registered office in the EU for the sake of regulation, so far they haven't really explained how they're going to enforce that. Especially as they've been moving in the direction of allowing greater third country participation in their financial system in the first place. It would be difficult allowing the US to participate while trying to block the UK. Besides, when a computer is making the decision, what does it even mean to have the "decision maker" based in Europe?

LatteLazy 6y ago

Financial services don't have tarrifs because they're totally banned in many cases. You can't offer banking services or insurance in the EU unless your regulated by an EU member or covered under a trade agreement. But a bank etc in one member country can offer them in all other member countries, that's called passporting. Right now, if you want to IPO a Germany company, your friendly Goldman Sachs banker in London can do the whole thing over email. But from 00:01CET 01/01/21, that banker will need to move to the EU, establish residency, get approval to open GoldmansEU, open it (including getting the correct training and certification and moving a tonne of money there), setup to pay taxes and abide by local and EU regs, and then call the client back. He'll sack his UK staff or try and take them. He'll stop paying UK taxes. He'll stop funding the UKs Museums and Operas and Lamboghini dealerships. Financial services for the world's largest, most developed market has been a massive boon for the UK. Its funded everything else we've done. Passporting was the core economic thing we wanted in a trade deal. Fishing and farming and manufacturing are all worth less than just banking. And we didn't get it. But we can continue to sell some cod as long as we abide by Brussels decisions so I guess I need to retrain...

Brakenshire 6y ago
Surely Goldman Sachs already have an office in Frankfurt. It's interesting to me what would fall foul of the new limitations. If the call is taken from someone in Frankfurt and they forward it on to someone in London, does that count? How about if they work in a team together? Or if the Frankfurt banker asks advice from someone in London. It seems difficult to draw a line there. I'm not really clear whether it's just about having a local subsidiary for compliance purposes, or whether it literally means no assistance at all, or what.
- rvba 6y ago
  The bank still has to run according to EU rules so in the long term probably easier to hire people from EU.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  They might have an office but they don't have a bank. Why not? Because operating a bank requires a huge amount of capital and a shit tonne of regulatory compliance. Literally 10s of millions in lawyers fees alone. Per year. So no one bothers having more than 1 EU entity. Offices maybe, but not entities. Starting in a week, the London entities that all those big banks set up are useless for offering services to the rest of the EU. This is a big issue because its NOT enough to just get a PO box and register a company. You need to capitalise and regulators want to meet traders. You need to pass the local exams and comply with the local regulations. Otherwise 101 foreign banks would not would have such a big London presence, they'd just run it from their home locations (Hong Kong, New York, Singapore). For a long time, the UK has had a big advantage because the FCA were rapid and easy to satisfy. You could get a bank up and running here in just 2 years for less than 100m. Now you have to justify keeping that office when 80% of its business now needs to be done in Frankfurt, Paris, Dublin, Zurich or wherever. This all seems like a lot of fuss and a bit anti business right? The reason we all (America, Japan, EU, HK, Singapore, etc) do this is because its the only way to avoid major crises with huge knock-on effects. Capital requirements came in to avoid another sub prime bailout. The tests and training and licensing of individuals has grown up after 101 scandals, most recently the rate fixing on fx. Europe especially has learned that under regulation in finance is much more expensive than prudence. And prudence for complex, large, interconnected, opaque, big banks is pricey...
- vr46 6y ago
  Not that easy, last client was underwriting and they cannot write any business in the EU and their attempt to get licences was rejected last time, so they’re having to run business through another company and somehow finagle paperwork to reinsure it themselves, or something. It’s not easy at all, regulations have ensured that it’s not easy.
cameronh90 6y ago
Financial services profit centres have continued hiring in London. The mass exodus to the EU seems to have failed to materialise. Few people in this industry seem particularly worried about brexit other than the impact it has on the wider market. Obviously everyone wishes it hadn't happened, but the consensus seems to be that it will be fine. The services that are potentially being forced to open up EU offices are mostly the cost centres, which are very commoditised anyway and have been increasingly automated over the last decade. Although the EU have said something about not being able to just have a registered office in the EU for the sake of regulation, so far they haven't really explained how they're going to enforce that. Especially as they've been moving in the direction of allowing greater third country participation in their financial system in the first place. It would be difficult allowing the US to participate while trying to block the UK. Besides, when a computer is making the decision, what does it even mean to have the "decision maker" based in Europe?