3 ms·

\o fellow violinist here. Never thought about frets, but a lot of people (myself included) started with tape on their fingerboard. Usually it'd only go to about

\o fellow violinist here. Never thought about frets, but a lot of people (myself included) started with tape on their fingerboard. Usually it'd only go to about 2nd position at most. You have a reference point for where to place your finger, but it doesn't impact pitch (and prevent vibrato) as much as a fret would. Just something to think about... :)

madhadron 6y ago
> a lot of people (myself included) started with tape on their fingerboard. I have come to dislike this method. It gets the student focused on looking at the fingerboard and using the small lateral muscles in their fingers to try to reach for the tape rather than finding the large muscle positioning and biomechanics that produces in tune fingerings. Hold up your hand with fingers straight. Try spreading your fingers and then pulling them together fast. They kind of "pop" between the two positions, and if you look at the spread position, they're basically the same distance apart. So if you can arrange your arm so that spread drops an in-tune whole step on the fingerboard and together drops an in-tune half step, you will play in tune. You do that by rotating your elbow under the instrument. The farther toward your back the elbow is, the more your hand is angled from the neck, and the closer the spacing between where your fingers fall on the fingerboard. The more your push your elbow forward, the more your fingers fall farther apart on the strings. There's an in-tune position for each of the four strings, and kind of inbetweens for double stops. Training your gross muscle memory to find that position is vastly easier than searching for tapes, you don't get in the habit of looking at the fingerboard (because there's nothing there that makes a difference), and you don't get slowed down later because your lateral muscles in your fingers are tense and making your fingers move slower. The funny thing is that I think this was described in Geminiani's treatise, which was the first manual of violin playing ever.
- cipherboy 6y ago
  OP was using frets, so I mentioned tapes... :-) Fundamentally, technique differs a lot based on size of the player. Ricci vs Perlman vs Shaham vs Midori vs Hahn vs Paganini, they all make the technique looks effortless. And the a lot reason why is because they've spent a lot of time removing bad tension from their playing. While elbow positioning does matter, it is more a function of string and third vs fifth hand position. The fingerboard is curved, not flat, and you want the finger to land normal to the board for any given string. Look for the work of Sol Babitz, or if you can't find it, Borivoj Martinic-Jercic's forward to his exercises. For me, what helped the most was removing the shoulder rest during practice. You become accutely aware of the the delicate balancing act that needs to occur, and the forces you put on the instrument. With time, you can develop balance in the left hand and achieve better dexterity than before. For anyone with sufficiently long neck, you can no longer rely on continual holding, and need to support the instrument (in fixed position sections) via the thumb. This encourages you to release pressure on the digits as you play. :-) But like OP said, they're happy so why mess with what works for them. :-) P.S. what rep are you working on? Feel free to drop me an email if you're interested in discussing more.
  - madhadron 6y ago
    > Fundamentally, technique differs a lot based on size of the player. I'm not sure about this. I'm tall and have huge hands, but I've seen the same approach work for quite small people. The actual technique you end up with can look quite different, but I think the goal is pedagogy that directs attention to the right things and let the rest fall in place around it. > you want the finger to land normal to the board for any given string. It's not clear to me why that would be. I don't have access to a music library anymore, so the Babitz stuff looks like it might be hard to find, but the Martinic-Jercic book looks really interesting. Thanks! > For me, what helped the most was removing the shoulder rest during practice. When I decided I didn't have time to maintain both a Baroque and a modern technique, I ended up merging them. Haven't used a shoulder rest in years, but I do use a low, center mount chinrest with a gel pad on it. I'm actually starting on the Bach two part inventions on piano these days in my small amount of time I allocate to music. I haven't touched my violin in months, sadly.
    - cipherboy 6y ago
      >> you want the finger to land normal to the board for any given string. > > It's not clear to me why that would be. Tone and tension. You have to use a lot more force to push the string down, if you hit it at an angle. To clarify, I mean normal mostly in the plane perpendicular to the string (across the body). If your elbow is rotated too far backwards and you're trying to play on the G string, your finger will end up nearly parallel with the fingerboard. To reach the G string, you'll have to extend the fingers (at least, with my sized hands). Do not avoid the higher string though, as this too will affect tone. The strongest and also most relaxed hand position is naturally curled (mostly a fist, but you can't really play the left hand that way... You can the right hand however). By rotating the elbow, you preserve that relaxed hand position on all strings in lower positions. > When I decided I didn't have time to maintain both a Baroque and a modern technique, I ended up merging them. Haven't used a shoulder rest in years, but I do use a low, center mount chinrest with a gel pad on it. When you seek left hand balance, you want to minimize downward force, so you can apply equal upward force with your thumb (this is roughly balance). With a shoulder rest (or I fear, a tall chin rest), you can also apply supporting force via the chin and the rest, but that's a source of tension if you're not careful. You can still perform many shifts with little downward pressure, if you leave the thumb immobile during the shift (either moving before or after). Some shifts where both move are still possible. After lots of practice (perhaps less for you, since you are already accustomed to playing without a shoulder rest -- I wasn't yet), you can get it to a minimum even in Concertos like the Tchaikovsky. > I don't have access to a music library anymore, so the Babitz stuff looks like it might be hard to find, but the Martinic-Jercic book looks really interesting. Thanks! I have a PDF of the Babitz that I scanned while at school if you are curious. It's a collection of his short articles in other publications. And to clarify in case it might not've been obvious, I studied under Boro. I don't have any monetary interest in his book, but I do think he made a lot of sense.

madhadron 6y ago

> a lot of people (myself included) started with tape on their fingerboard. I have come to dislike this method. It gets the student focused on looking at the fingerboard and using the small lateral muscles in their fingers to try to reach for the tape rather than finding the large muscle positioning and biomechanics that produces in tune fingerings. Hold up your hand with fingers straight. Try spreading your fingers and then pulling them together fast. They kind of "pop" between the two positions, and if you look at the spread position, they're basically the same distance apart. So if you can arrange your arm so that spread drops an in-tune whole step on the fingerboard and together drops an in-tune half step, you will play in tune. You do that by rotating your elbow under the instrument. The farther toward your back the elbow is, the more your hand is angled from the neck, and the closer the spacing between where your fingers fall on the fingerboard. The more your push your elbow forward, the more your fingers fall farther apart on the strings. There's an in-tune position for each of the four strings, and kind of inbetweens for double stops. Training your gross muscle memory to find that position is vastly easier than searching for tapes, you don't get in the habit of looking at the fingerboard (because there's nothing there that makes a difference), and you don't get slowed down later because your lateral muscles in your fingers are tense and making your fingers move slower. The funny thing is that I think this was described in Geminiani's treatise, which was the first manual of violin playing ever.

cipherboy 6y ago
OP was using frets, so I mentioned tapes... :-) Fundamentally, technique differs a lot based on size of the player. Ricci vs Perlman vs Shaham vs Midori vs Hahn vs Paganini, they all make the technique looks effortless. And the a lot reason why is because they've spent a lot of time removing bad tension from their playing. While elbow positioning does matter, it is more a function of string and third vs fifth hand position. The fingerboard is curved, not flat, and you want the finger to land normal to the board for any given string. Look for the work of Sol Babitz, or if you can't find it, Borivoj Martinic-Jercic's forward to his exercises. For me, what helped the most was removing the shoulder rest during practice. You become accutely aware of the the delicate balancing act that needs to occur, and the forces you put on the instrument. With time, you can develop balance in the left hand and achieve better dexterity than before. For anyone with sufficiently long neck, you can no longer rely on continual holding, and need to support the instrument (in fixed position sections) via the thumb. This encourages you to release pressure on the digits as you play. :-) But like OP said, they're happy so why mess with what works for them. :-) P.S. what rep are you working on? Feel free to drop me an email if you're interested in discussing more.
- madhadron 6y ago
  > Fundamentally, technique differs a lot based on size of the player. I'm not sure about this. I'm tall and have huge hands, but I've seen the same approach work for quite small people. The actual technique you end up with can look quite different, but I think the goal is pedagogy that directs attention to the right things and let the rest fall in place around it. > you want the finger to land normal to the board for any given string. It's not clear to me why that would be. I don't have access to a music library anymore, so the Babitz stuff looks like it might be hard to find, but the Martinic-Jercic book looks really interesting. Thanks! > For me, what helped the most was removing the shoulder rest during practice. When I decided I didn't have time to maintain both a Baroque and a modern technique, I ended up merging them. Haven't used a shoulder rest in years, but I do use a low, center mount chinrest with a gel pad on it. I'm actually starting on the Bach two part inventions on piano these days in my small amount of time I allocate to music. I haven't touched my violin in months, sadly.
  - cipherboy 6y ago
    >> you want the finger to land normal to the board for any given string. > > It's not clear to me why that would be. Tone and tension. You have to use a lot more force to push the string down, if you hit it at an angle. To clarify, I mean normal mostly in the plane perpendicular to the string (across the body). If your elbow is rotated too far backwards and you're trying to play on the G string, your finger will end up nearly parallel with the fingerboard. To reach the G string, you'll have to extend the fingers (at least, with my sized hands). Do not avoid the higher string though, as this too will affect tone. The strongest and also most relaxed hand position is naturally curled (mostly a fist, but you can't really play the left hand that way... You can the right hand however). By rotating the elbow, you preserve that relaxed hand position on all strings in lower positions. > When I decided I didn't have time to maintain both a Baroque and a modern technique, I ended up merging them. Haven't used a shoulder rest in years, but I do use a low, center mount chinrest with a gel pad on it. When you seek left hand balance, you want to minimize downward force, so you can apply equal upward force with your thumb (this is roughly balance). With a shoulder rest (or I fear, a tall chin rest), you can also apply supporting force via the chin and the rest, but that's a source of tension if you're not careful. You can still perform many shifts with little downward pressure, if you leave the thumb immobile during the shift (either moving before or after). Some shifts where both move are still possible. After lots of practice (perhaps less for you, since you are already accustomed to playing without a shoulder rest -- I wasn't yet), you can get it to a minimum even in Concertos like the Tchaikovsky. > I don't have access to a music library anymore, so the Babitz stuff looks like it might be hard to find, but the Martinic-Jercic book looks really interesting. Thanks! I have a PDF of the Babitz that I scanned while at school if you are curious. It's a collection of his short articles in other publications. And to clarify in case it might not've been obvious, I studied under Boro. I don't have any monetary interest in his book, but I do think he made a lot of sense.