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AMD's Zen microarchitecture. At the time, AMD was years behind Intel in both performance and power consumption. There were constant jokes about the Bulldozer co

AMD's Zen microarchitecture. At the time, AMD was years behind Intel in both performance and power consumption. There were constant jokes about the Bulldozer cores burning people's houses down. The few remaining 'team red' loyalists had been hyping Zen were largely ignored. Then, boom. Over night AMD leapfrogged Intel, and now on the third generation has a firm lead in mid range desk top all the way up to high end server silicon. Obviously, Intel has major partnerships with most OEMs, so despite their shortcomings they're still doing strong. Of course, if ARM or RISCV really is the future this is just a blip. Honestly, I don't see x64 going anywhere for at least 15 years - though hope I can look back at this and roll my eyes someday...

BoorishBears 6y ago
> Obviously, Intel has major partnerships with most OEMs, so despite their shortcomings they're still doing strong. There's this weird obsession with blaming AMD shortcomings on Intel... AMD can't produce enough chips for OEMs so they get left out in places. End of story. It's fun to joke about "14nm++++++" but it just so happens actually being able to stock your chips is a pretty big competitive advantage.
- yabones 6y ago
  That's absolutely true, at least historically, but unfortunately it's not the full picture. Take for example the 'Ultrabook' branding. It's an Intel trademark, and for a few years that word was _everywhere_. However, to get the shiny badge on your system you had to give a lot of control to Intel over the design and characteristics [1]. That's not to say AMD doesn't do the same thing to a degree - They own the term "APU" and will never let Intel refer to an i7 with 'Iris Xe Graphics' as an APU, Never. The point is that Intel for a long time had leverage over most of the PC industry and used it to get exclusivity over certain parts of the market. --- [1] https://www.eweek.com/mobile/intel-ultrabook-partners-look-for-cut-in-chip-prices-report https://www.eweek.com/mobile/intel-ultrabook-partners-look-f...
  - BoorishBears 6y ago
    If anything it's the opposite, that historically Intel did have unfair advantages but now it's as simple as AMD failing to deliver. I mean take things like the Ultrabook... you realize your article is literally a decade old? I remember those days Intel was literally inventing a term and paying developers to come up with "ultrabook app ideas" and stuff. Now the usage of the term is pretty much toothless: https://store.hp.com/us/en/dlp/amd-ultrabook https://store.hp.com/us/en/dlp/amd-ultrabook And that was a bizarre example to choose anyways if you're willing to dig into ancient history, there was a point OEMs were afraid to work with AMD because of Intel... - Now a days their iron grip has waned, but AMD literally cannot produce. It's that simple.
    - yabones 6y ago
      Yes, it is a very old story and that's specifically why I chose to highlight it. Consumer electronics are rarely about 'the best' chips, just the ones that work. Intel may not be the leader technology wise, but they have the contracts to put their processors where they need to be. They don't have the strength they used to, they still leverage the existing relationships with OEMs. And regarding AMD's production capabilities, that seems to be old news. According to a report [1] from August, there don't seem to be any major logistical issues anymore. They've massively scaled up output from TSMC, at some points this year making up about 20% of their production output [2]. Whether this is on the same level as Intel, it's hard to say - If you have information comparing them I'd love to see it. --- [1] https://wccftech.com/exclusive-the-state-of-amds-supply-chain-august-2020/ https://wccftech.com/exclusive-the-state-of-amds-supply-chai... [2] https://hothardware.com/news/amd-7nm-production-at-tsmc-set-to-double-in-2h-2020 https://hothardware.com/news/amd-7nm-production-at-tsmc-set-...
      - BoorishBears 6y ago
        Definitely not buying the "I chose an old and dead story because it's old and dead". I dislike when I'm talking about something and start to get the impression the person rebutting is just googling random stuff to throw out and see what sticks. Because then it falls on me to apply context to everything they say (since JIT googling doesn't give you that) For example, anyone claiming that their mobile production issues are "old news" as HP is literally cancelling Ryzen based laptop orders and pitching Intel replacements a couple of months after that article https://phonemantra.com/amd-ryzen-mobile-shortage-confirmed-hp-renoir-laptops-failed/ https://phonemantra.com/amd-ryzen-mobile-shortage-confirmed-..., is obviously not up to date on the situation. And I mean you're bringing up TSMC numbers but ignoring the fact consoles are a large chunk of that output and the fact the 20 percent number means literally nothing in a vacuum. AMD is a public company, it's in their best interest to always say things will be better on the horizon. - The fact is OEMs are supply constrained on Ryzen laptops and not on Intel laptops. To the point they're retconning Ryzen skus. This damages AMDs relationship with OEMs and is not Intel's fault. I'm going to leave it at that.
mhh__ 6y ago
RISC-V is probably going to be the Linux-Desktop of the future. Ultimately I think a lot of people hyping don't necessarily grasp that the ISA itself doesn't have a huge amount to do with a CPU in your pocket.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
  The future is still unevenly distributed:) - Typed from my Laptop running Linux
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    It wasn't meant as a pejorative. Just as Linux dominates the datacentre, RISC-V will carve out a slice of it's own, I just don't think we'll be playing Cyberpunk 3089 on our RISC-V gaming machines. Personally, I don't particularly care whether my computer runs RISC-V or not (for the reason above, it's only open source at the edges) - I'm more concerned with the openness of the rest of the machine
    - deadmutex 6y ago
      > playing Cyberpunk 3089 on our RISC-V gaming machines. Maybe via Stadia :).
      - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
        Or qemu user mode; that'd probably be simple enough once performance catches up.
    - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
      Oh, yeah, then we agree. I'm expecting it to make inroads in embedded stuff first (which, I mean, it already has, ex. WD using it for controllers) and eventually wind up as something where you can get a single board computer running on it pretty easily but as a second-class option for a long time. But we already are in a place where you can use Linux for most daily tasks if you want, you can run NT games via Proton, plenty of folks use Pis for side projects, etc. So if we get there with RISC-V in a few years I'll be happy.
jjoonathan 6y ago
There are two parts to the story: architecture and process. On architecture, AMD deserves praise. On process, not so much. They didn't "git gud," they gave up. Which clearly was the right move for them, don't get me wrong, but I think all this partying in the streets about the TSMC monoculture is... shortsighted.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  I think where they deserve praise related to process is the pragmatic and frankly pretty brilliant way they worked around 7nm processes yield issues in Zen 2. To improve yields they used a number of 8-core "chiplets" manufactured in 7nm tied together with a 14nm I/O die. This meant that while a certain blue competitor was still trying to get 28+ core monolithic dies, AMD could scale to huge core counts without reducing yields by tying together more chiplets. Their 64-core 128-thread Threadripper workstation parts should have yields almost exactly as good as their low-end CPUs. The Xeon W 28-core monolithic monster? Not so much. AMD did a lot of things right this time. Intel's got some catching up to do.
  - jjoonathan 6y ago
    Yeah, I just hope they do catch up, instead of bailing like AMD and leaving TSMC the only advanced node player in town. (Yes, I'm aware of Samsung.)
    - arcticbull 6y ago
      Yep, for the health of the industry I want for the same thing. More competitive foundries are always better. GloFo isn't really interested in building anything super competitive moving forward either - they announced they weren't going to pursue 7nm. I think Intel's still pretty dead set of getting back into the foundry game, doing so is kind of necessary for defense contracts right? Maybe we'll see On Semi get in the game. They did pick up IBM's Fab 10 from GloFo last year.
- colinmhayes 6y ago
  Sometimes giving up deserves praise. It's not an easy decision to write off all the money you've invested in process, AMD realized it's what they had and made the right choice. That deserves praise.

BoorishBears 6y ago

> Obviously, Intel has major partnerships with most OEMs, so despite their shortcomings they're still doing strong. There's this weird obsession with blaming AMD shortcomings on Intel... AMD can't produce enough chips for OEMs so they get left out in places. End of story. It's fun to joke about "14nm++++++" but it just so happens actually being able to stock your chips is a pretty big competitive advantage.

yabones 6y ago
That's absolutely true, at least historically, but unfortunately it's not the full picture. Take for example the 'Ultrabook' branding. It's an Intel trademark, and for a few years that word was _everywhere_. However, to get the shiny badge on your system you had to give a lot of control to Intel over the design and characteristics [1]. That's not to say AMD doesn't do the same thing to a degree - They own the term "APU" and will never let Intel refer to an i7 with 'Iris Xe Graphics' as an APU, Never. The point is that Intel for a long time had leverage over most of the PC industry and used it to get exclusivity over certain parts of the market. --- [1] https://www.eweek.com/mobile/intel-ultrabook-partners-look-for-cut-in-chip-prices-report https://www.eweek.com/mobile/intel-ultrabook-partners-look-f...
- BoorishBears 6y ago
  If anything it's the opposite, that historically Intel did have unfair advantages but now it's as simple as AMD failing to deliver. I mean take things like the Ultrabook... you realize your article is literally a decade old? I remember those days Intel was literally inventing a term and paying developers to come up with "ultrabook app ideas" and stuff. Now the usage of the term is pretty much toothless: https://store.hp.com/us/en/dlp/amd-ultrabook https://store.hp.com/us/en/dlp/amd-ultrabook And that was a bizarre example to choose anyways if you're willing to dig into ancient history, there was a point OEMs were afraid to work with AMD because of Intel... - Now a days their iron grip has waned, but AMD literally cannot produce. It's that simple.
  - yabones 6y ago
    Yes, it is a very old story and that's specifically why I chose to highlight it. Consumer electronics are rarely about 'the best' chips, just the ones that work. Intel may not be the leader technology wise, but they have the contracts to put their processors where they need to be. They don't have the strength they used to, they still leverage the existing relationships with OEMs. And regarding AMD's production capabilities, that seems to be old news. According to a report [1] from August, there don't seem to be any major logistical issues anymore. They've massively scaled up output from TSMC, at some points this year making up about 20% of their production output [2]. Whether this is on the same level as Intel, it's hard to say - If you have information comparing them I'd love to see it. --- [1] https://wccftech.com/exclusive-the-state-of-amds-supply-chain-august-2020/ https://wccftech.com/exclusive-the-state-of-amds-supply-chai... [2] https://hothardware.com/news/amd-7nm-production-at-tsmc-set-to-double-in-2h-2020 https://hothardware.com/news/amd-7nm-production-at-tsmc-set-...
    - BoorishBears 6y ago
      Definitely not buying the "I chose an old and dead story because it's old and dead". I dislike when I'm talking about something and start to get the impression the person rebutting is just googling random stuff to throw out and see what sticks. Because then it falls on me to apply context to everything they say (since JIT googling doesn't give you that) For example, anyone claiming that their mobile production issues are "old news" as HP is literally cancelling Ryzen based laptop orders and pitching Intel replacements a couple of months after that article https://phonemantra.com/amd-ryzen-mobile-shortage-confirmed-hp-renoir-laptops-failed/ https://phonemantra.com/amd-ryzen-mobile-shortage-confirmed-..., is obviously not up to date on the situation. And I mean you're bringing up TSMC numbers but ignoring the fact consoles are a large chunk of that output and the fact the 20 percent number means literally nothing in a vacuum. AMD is a public company, it's in their best interest to always say things will be better on the horizon. - The fact is OEMs are supply constrained on Ryzen laptops and not on Intel laptops. To the point they're retconning Ryzen skus. This damages AMDs relationship with OEMs and is not Intel's fault. I'm going to leave it at that.

mhh__ 6y ago

RISC-V is probably going to be the Linux-Desktop of the future. Ultimately I think a lot of people hyping don't necessarily grasp that the ISA itself doesn't have a huge amount to do with a CPU in your pocket.

yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
The future is still unevenly distributed:) - Typed from my Laptop running Linux
- mhh__ 6y ago
  It wasn't meant as a pejorative. Just as Linux dominates the datacentre, RISC-V will carve out a slice of it's own, I just don't think we'll be playing Cyberpunk 3089 on our RISC-V gaming machines. Personally, I don't particularly care whether my computer runs RISC-V or not (for the reason above, it's only open source at the edges) - I'm more concerned with the openness of the rest of the machine
  - deadmutex 6y ago
    > playing Cyberpunk 3089 on our RISC-V gaming machines. Maybe via Stadia :).
    - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
      Or qemu user mode; that'd probably be simple enough once performance catches up.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 6y ago
    Oh, yeah, then we agree. I'm expecting it to make inroads in embedded stuff first (which, I mean, it already has, ex. WD using it for controllers) and eventually wind up as something where you can get a single board computer running on it pretty easily but as a second-class option for a long time. But we already are in a place where you can use Linux for most daily tasks if you want, you can run NT games via Proton, plenty of folks use Pis for side projects, etc. So if we get there with RISC-V in a few years I'll be happy.

jjoonathan 6y ago

There are two parts to the story: architecture and process. On architecture, AMD deserves praise. On process, not so much. They didn't "git gud," they gave up. Which clearly was the right move for them, don't get me wrong, but I think all this partying in the streets about the TSMC monoculture is... shortsighted.

arcticbull 6y ago
I think where they deserve praise related to process is the pragmatic and frankly pretty brilliant way they worked around 7nm processes yield issues in Zen 2. To improve yields they used a number of 8-core "chiplets" manufactured in 7nm tied together with a 14nm I/O die. This meant that while a certain blue competitor was still trying to get 28+ core monolithic dies, AMD could scale to huge core counts without reducing yields by tying together more chiplets. Their 64-core 128-thread Threadripper workstation parts should have yields almost exactly as good as their low-end CPUs. The Xeon W 28-core monolithic monster? Not so much. AMD did a lot of things right this time. Intel's got some catching up to do.
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  Yeah, I just hope they do catch up, instead of bailing like AMD and leaving TSMC the only advanced node player in town. (Yes, I'm aware of Samsung.)
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Yep, for the health of the industry I want for the same thing. More competitive foundries are always better. GloFo isn't really interested in building anything super competitive moving forward either - they announced they weren't going to pursue 7nm. I think Intel's still pretty dead set of getting back into the foundry game, doing so is kind of necessary for defense contracts right? Maybe we'll see On Semi get in the game. They did pick up IBM's Fab 10 from GloFo last year.
colinmhayes 6y ago
Sometimes giving up deserves praise. It's not an easy decision to write off all the money you've invested in process, AMD realized it's what they had and made the right choice. That deserves praise.