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Sorry but I have to disagree a lot. An app is not the best way to learn piano. Piano is not just about pressing keys. Does the app correct your position (import

• publicola1990 6y ago
  Yes but in comparison with the same time spent on a game like 2077, even app lets people make progress.
  • Scarbutt 6y ago
    And create bad piano habits that are harder to correct later, but sure, depends on your goals.
• mike_h 6y ago
  This advice is debatable anymore. If your goal is to really go deep on acoustic, traditional piano then sure. But if you just want to make music in a modern way (on the computer), or even just want to try it out for a year or two before deciding this is a lifetime hobby to invest thousands of dollars and hours into, then cheap midi keyboard plus app is more than fine. Especially if the app makes it fun for you.
  • verroq 6y ago
    The problem is that if you decide to continue you've already spent a year learning bad habits that could have been easily corrected if you had a teacher with you.
    • komali2 6y ago
      The alternative is "never starting because of high barrier to entry," not "starting with better habits."
      • verroq 6y ago
        Let's not kid ourselves, the chances of any normal person learning by themselves without a teacher to any kind of mastery is zero. Most won't have to the drive to continue even after two weeks. "Starting" doesn't mean anything, anyone can "start". It's trivial to start.
        • komali2 6y ago
          Really? I find myself surrounded by self taught programmers, musicians, and visual artists all the time. Yes. Nobody I know will play in the London philharmonic. But we figured out enough to play a cover band in highschool, and I'm figuring out enough to learn passable music production. On that note, from what I've learned from their interviews, many of the biggest producers have never taken a music lesson. This isn't me arguing against lessons writ large, simply pushing back on the notion that they, and other barriers to entry, are not barriers at all. There are other paths.
          • verroq 6y ago
            The point is the lessons as a standardised tool work quite well in producing results. The variation in results is much higher if you go off the well beaten path. Secondly, if you think learning piano is comparable to programming or art then you are completely mistaken. Edit- added here since HN doesn’t let you comment anymore if you get downvoted too much. With programming, the feedback is immediate and accurate. You know if your code does compile. You know if your logic is bugged or if your algorithm is too inefficient. If the code you write doesn’t work, somebody can give you their code to bring you up to speed. This allows you to immediately address your issues. With piano, (at least in the beginning) you are not qualified to judge if your hand position is right, if your posture won’t give your RSI in the long run, if you are even playing the right notes, if your rhythm is off, if you are reading the sheet music wrong, if your pedal is timing subtly off or if your legato is correct. You can practice for hours on playing the wrong thing. A teacher can help you get this stuff to get fixed. Secondly, unless you started ear training as a child you won’t ever be able to develop absolute pitch. Your ability to discern pitch and listen to the very music you are playing is already at a disadvantage. You’re basically blind and deaf and you have no idea what progress should look like apart from superficial judgments.
• c03 6y ago
  I must agree. op comment is the worst advice i have seen on HN on any subject, it reads like an impatient child wishing to avoid to study just to be able to perform. But then again, it comes down to what you want to achieve. If you just want to mind numbingly press buttons, knock yourself out.
  • komali2 6y ago
    I liked the advice because I always wanted to learn piano but every time I approached stage 1, people were saying similar things. "Oh, just to get STARTED, you're going to need an 88 key weighted keyboard, that'll cost you 600$ and take up an entire wall of your studio. Ok now spend 100$ on books, and now you have everything you need to spend 200$ a month and an hour every week on a teacher. And you better practice five hours a week, or don't even bother, don't you dare soil our beautiful instrument!" It's gatekeeping. I don't want to be excellent piano, or even all that good. I want to be able to occasionally play a song not very well, and play some chords in a way that pleases me. Mostly, I want to plug chords on a whim into my DAW, where I have control to a level I, as a non savant, will never be able to play to. The OP advice was perfect for someone like me who has learned piano just fine that way.
    • gjulianm 6y ago
      If that's what you want to do, that's nice and go ahead, maybe the app is the cheapest way to get to that point. My point is that people who use them should be aware of their limitations, and compare that with what they want to achieve. PS: the weighted keyboard thing is actually important. You can get cheap weighted keyboards for less than 200$, maybe even less in second-hand market. A non-weighted keyboard will limit your playing a lot, even early on.
    • publicola1990 6y ago
      Very much agree to the view, in fact I think the gatekeeping has become stronger in recent years, in the past, playing piano was considered a more utilitarian skill, since it was more of a means to hear music in ones own house, before recorded music became popular. It was essentially a music reproduction device, like a record player/tape recorder.
• komali2 6y ago
  I understand why you're frustrated to hear someone I suppose cheapen something you're really passionate about, but what is more valuable to you: less people learning piano because the barrier to entry is thousands of dollars of equipment, lessons, and books, not to mention time and space, but when they play they have good velocity management, or, tons more people enjoying the instrument, but not really playing it as well?
  • skeeter2020 6y ago
    The former. We don't need more boosters of things done casually, for fun and a short time; we have knitting, duolingo and sourdough bread for that. I want to promote and help people pursue big things that take time and tremendous effort but have huge pay-off. I focus on a handful of people over my life and others can work at the top of the funnel.
    • XCSme 6y ago
      The thing with doing one thing and well is that you are missing on all the other cool things in life. What if you chose the wrong thing? Why is being in the top 99th percentile so much better than being in the 90th percentile? Is it worth the extra 10 years spent working on that if you are still not in the 99.99th percentile? I don't think you should focus on the pay-off or the "OMG, I got so good at this!" part, you should just enjoy the journey and learning process. If you are ok with learning very slowly but always progressing it might be better than spending a tremendous effort in a short time just to quickly reach your ceiling and than hate the thing that you do.
    • alisonkisk 6y ago
      Why is mediocre bread OK but mediocre piano isn't? Why is people putting a little effort into making something aesthetic and fun such a crime? Serious piano has no payoff unless you're better than all the professional recordings we already have.
  • gjulianm 6y ago
    I want more people to enjoy music, which means being honest with what comes with each method. Piano apps will be easy and cheap, but they have their limitations. Marketing and comments like the parent make it seem like you can just substitute a teacher and practice by using these apps. I also imagine that people can get frustrated if they see that after tons of practice they still don't sound how they like and they don't have a lot of tools to improve by themselves, because you don't get those tools from apps. And you're not really understanding me. I don't feel like these apps cheapen my effort. I just wish I knew the things I talk about in my comment earlier so that I could have taken the piano classes I had more seriously and I wouldn't have to suffer now the lack of technique, exercise and repertoire I have now.
• XCSme 6y ago
  I have used SimplyPiano for about 1 year now and I'm really happy with it. I did learn of lot of piano theory and I can easily read sheet music and learn/play simple songs (left hand chords + right hand melody) in a few minutes. > Does the app correct your position (important if you don't want to get fatigue and cramps), your volume, fingerings, etc? Yes, the app does constantly reminding you to have the correct position, shows fingering but does indeed not test for volume. It's obviously not as good as having a teacher constantly watching you. I have also recently started some lessons with a piano teacher for more in-depth music theory and checking my current progress, she didn't have too much stuff to correct, so the app wasn't that bad and the stuff that I learnt was actually correct and usable. One thing that the teacher was a lot better at than the app was explaining how more complex musical concepts are linked together and how focusing more on the basics is more important that learning specific things/progressions. > connect it to an el cheapo midi keyboard I use the Yamaha NP 12 (it costs around $200), it sounds amazing but it does have only 61 keys and it's semi-weighted. I still think it's good enough for learning how to play. One thing that you might be missing is the fact that most of the people wanting to learn the piano don't plan on becoming a professional, they just want to be able to learn and play a few songs or improvise a bit. In order to do this usually "good enough" is good enough, you don't need the best equipment or the perfect technique. It's also important, as you mentioned, to know what to expect and what you are missing out on by using the learning methods you do.
  • gjulianm 6y ago
    > Yes, the app does constantly reminding you to have the correct position, That's not what I meant by position, I meant hand position, finger curving, etc. If you did it well at the start that's nice, some people don't (in fact there's a guy in this same thread saying that he has finger cramps when playing). > so the app wasn't that bad and the stuff that I learnt was actually correct and usable. That's great! I'm not saying it's useless, only that has limitations, the same thing that you noticed when you started with a teacher. > I still think it's good enough for learning how to play. As long as it's weighted it's decent, and 61 keys for starters is not too bad either. When the parent said 'cheapo midi keyboard' I was thinking of one of these small cheap keyboards that almost looks like a toy. > One thing that you might be missing is the fact that most of the people wanting to learn the piano don't plan on becoming a professional, they just want to be able to learn and play a few songs or improvise a bit. In order to do this usually "good enough" is good enough I know that. I'm talking precisely to that people, because I'm one of those people. I'm doing that with the clarinet right now in fact. If you really want to play a few songs by yourself and improvise a bit, you're taking it seriously enough to the point I do think it's worth it to go to a teacher.
• moron4hire 6y ago
  Uuuugh, classicists are so boring. Not everything has to be classical piano. Thelonius Monk didn't have anyone correcting his finger position.
  • jacquesm 6y ago
    This guy was in pretty much constant pain from the limitations of his body but it never stopped him from playing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PyYcnXQZJY&list=RDzWmz5-NoFzk&index=3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PyYcnXQZJY&list=RDzWmz5-NoF... Of course, better not to form bad habits, but your body has some pretty good signals to tell you that you are doing something wrong.
  • gjulianm 6y ago
    I'm not a classicist in fact. If you're Thelonius Monk go ahead and play, but in this same thread we have some people complaining of finger fatigue and cramps. That's something that a teacher can correct easily.
    • moron4hire 6y ago
      No, because the piano is not an ergonomic instrument. No matter what, you're going to experience finger fatigue and cramps. And that's even assuming you have a hand size that fits the one, standardized keyboard size.
• jsilence 6y ago
  Mostly agreed, but the CP2077 Soundtrack is hard to beat.
• simias 6y ago
  I think it's like using an app for language learning. If you think 10 minutes of Duolingo every day is going to make you fluent in Chinese you're deluding yourself, but it doesn't mean that it can't be a good entry point and a good way to build discipline and gauge your progress. I've been learning the saxophone for a few months (ask my neighbours) and have used a bunch of different methods. I find that even bad practice is good practice, so to speak. It's just important to keep a feedback loop: listen to yourself, compare yourself to good players and look for the differences. And don't just use an app, vary your training using multiple sources and methods to find what works best for you, as well and filling the gaps. For the saxophone I found that a good way to spot bad habits force yourself to "do things right" is to force yourself to play in a different key every day. This forces you to deconstruct what you're playing, as well as making sure that you can play on the entire range of your instrument. Sure, it's better to start with good personalized private courses with a good teacher and excellent hardware but many people wouldn't even start if that was the barrier of entry. I know that I definitely wouldn't have. Having to unlearn bad habits a few years down the line is annoying, but it's not the end of the world.
  • powersnail 6y ago
    > that even bad practice is good practice May I try to persuade you otherwise? Bad habits are often linked to repetitive injuries in the long run. This is something that you don't really notice several months in, but will bite you when you start to play a lot. If you really want to self-teach, I would suggest at least take some classes in the beginning to properly form your posture.
    • simias 6y ago
      I feel like it's overstated. Take people's postures in front of a computer: it's often terrible. Bad posture, bad keyboard usage, non ergonomic hardware etc... Yet we survive. Sure, it can create problems after years of constant abuse (RSI etc...) but generally that's true for people who spend multiple hours every day doing it wrong. If you learn to play piano 30 minutes every day for a year you'd really have to be doing it critically wrong to manage to maim yourself. Of course if you manage to stick with it long term and really commit a lot of time practicing, you better learn good posture sooner or later, but I don't think it's worth front-loading all stuff. It just raises the barrier for entry without huge benefits IMO. >This is something that you don't really notice several months in, but will bite you when you start to play a lot. Sure, I completely agree, but unlearning bad habits, while annoying, is part of getting good at anything I think. You need to pick your battles when you're starting, there's so much to learn. For me the equivalent would be teaching a programming course, but insist that everybody must be touchtyping in Dvorak on ergonomic keyboards when they're coding. While it's not necessarily bad advice in the long run all it'll achieve is make your students think that programming is a lot harder than it really is.
• jacquesm 6y ago
  > Sorry but I have to disagree a lot. And I have to disagree a lot with you. I had a piano teacher when I was young and that person put me off piano for the next 45 years or so. A good teacher will help you, a not so good teacher may well cause you to lose interest. Right now I'm practicing on my own, when I want, without a set schedule and without the goal of getting good enough to satisfy my - nonexistent - teacher. Likely a good teacher would help. But good teachers cost money, have their own schedules to keep and their goals may not overlap with mine. So this time around I'm taking it as slow or as fast as I want, when I want, learning pieces that are probably way above my level but that keep me motivated because I like to play them. If at some point I feel that I hit a plateau then I might go for a teacher for a while with the express goal of getting unstuck. Finally, not everybody learns in the same way and not everybody has your budget. I love learning by doing, not by being told how to do it and there is as sense of pride in learning a skill by yourself instead of having it handed down, it also allows you to develop your own style rather than to become a carbon copy of what your teacher considers to be 'proper'. There is room for all of this and yours as well but I don't like the way you are all over this thread proclaiming the 'one true way', there are as many ways as there are people and what works for one person could easily be someone else's nightmare. It would be nice if you at least acknowledged that you have not taken into account the goal of whoever you have in mind as your hypothetical piano student and that not everybody will fit that image. We agree that there are not shortcuts and that there is no magic method, but I think everybody that is somewhat serious about any instrument would agree on that.
  • gjulianm 6y ago
    Bad teachers are an issue, of course. But bad apps can be an issue too. No matter the method there's always the risk of not implementing it correctly. > their goals may not overlap with mine. That's a matter of talking with the teacher and setting down the goals. > Finally, not everybody learns in the same way and not everybody has your budget. My point is not "I did classes and I'm good now", is "I didn't do enough classes and now I see how that wasn't the best". > I don't like the way you are all over this thread proclaiming the 'one true way' If that's the way I'm coming across I'm sorry. My point is that there's more to music learning that people think (specially in HN, where I've seen really bad takes in some posts), and that they should be mindful that an app will not be a magic method. I've seen friends that had very high expectations and then got discouraged quickly. I prefer that people know what's ahead, and align the method to use with the expectations they have.
• corytheboyd 6y ago
  Going to shamelessly use this thread to pulse check something I am working on. I too have been learning piano over the last five months or so, but I found a private teacher through a local music school. Very glad I made that decision, we work well together and it’s amazing having someone for 1hr a week to keep you on track, motivated, correcting you in real time. Apps cannot do that, but there IS room for technology to assist remote learning. Neither of us has an amazing camera setup that can capture a full 88 key piano, which is tricky for performances that span many octaves... so you know pretty much any song :P We both have MIDI out though, which got me to thinking you could pretty easily stream that MIDI data through a p2p connection to render keys on a remote end in near real time. I have been working on a prototype on and off for a few months on a prototype and testing it with my teacher. It’s been useful for picking up the slack of not having complex camera rigging, and the cost of entry is buying a midi-to-usb cable. Anyway I’ve been ramping up to get it ready for letting other people try it out and wanted to hop into this very relevant thread and drop the pitch to see if there is interest in the idea!
  • jacquesm 6y ago
    If you get real-time reliable detection of notes and chords working in the browser then please let me now. Meanwhile, I'll plug https://pianojacq.com/ https://pianojacq.com/ which I wrote to help practice (digital or silent) piano.
    • corytheboyd 6y ago
      > If you get real-time reliable detection of notes and chords working in the browser then please let me know Will do! That is of course the focal point of any code I write for this, and it’s very tricky. To perhaps give you a little more confidence that I might figure this out, I know it’s not as simple as forwarding midi data through WebRTC and playing it on receipt on the other end ;) This gist of how I do it now is conceding to the fact that network latency exists and having a sort of buffer that allows midi note data to arrive out of order but be played back at the original timings (just delayed)
      • 6y ago
• sandGorgon 6y ago
  So I'm just giving you perspective after about 9 weeks of SimplyPiano. Im very far away from being able to control the nuances of volume. Im still at the point, where I'm learning to use my left and right hands independently and play without looking. And that's what SimplyPiano gets you to - it's a structured program+game that teaches you to read music and gain hand independence using an app. Im pretty self aware that I will need a teacher at some point. I have been a gamer and had formal teaching in music when I was kid. I find it hard to believe that a teacher would be able to correct me in real time, while simultaneously having me enjoy the process. Once I start playing half decently, the memory of music is motivation enough. Not right now.
  • gjulianm 6y ago
    Out of curiosity, how does the app make you enjoy the process? I took a quick look and it seems to have the same basic progression that most classes have, I assume the paid courses are different and better but I can't see them.
    • sandGorgon 6y ago
      So it doesn't "teach" you. Like I didn't even know it was teaching me to "read music". For me, it was just "hitting a few symbols". Suddenly in 2 weeks, I was reading music. It uses exactly the same tactics as any videogame lets you figure out game mechanics. Suddenly, you're playing another state of the game...and oh hey it's THAT song. This is hard to conceptualize for someone who can already play. But you have to understand that in October, I had no clue I would be reading music in December.
    • BigCatStuff 6y ago
      My 6 year old son played with SimplyPiano for several months this year, and I tried it out a bit as well. For me, SimplyPiano brings the excitement of being able to play popular music that you recognize and enjoy in a matter of weeks. The app has easy arrangements of everything from Adele to Beethoven that it takes you through as it 'teaches' you. There is also a gamification aspect that gives you more stars for hitting the right notes at the right time. When I had piano lessons as a child, playing classical music for years became boring and uninteresting to me. I believe apps with a wide range of music help keep interest levels up. The app seems like a great way to dip your toes into playing piano without committing to finding a teacher.
• mrandish 6y ago
  > An app is not the best way to learn piano. To many beginners starting out, the term "learn piano" can be used in a generic way and could mean anything from becoming a classical concert pianist, a Rick Wakeman-esque rock keyboardist, a Daft Punk-like synthesist, a digital composer creating symphonic cinema scores out of virtual software plug-in orchestras - or they may want to target the flexibility to "do it all." I'm a largely self-taught, hobbyist digital producer who loves my 61-key MIDI-only, synth action Fatar key beds but we started our elementary-aged kid with a Julliard-trained classical piano teacher and bought a $600 88-key, fully weighted Casio MIDI keyboard for home practice. The Casio sound engine doesn't sound as good as the virtual Bosendorfer in my laptop but it's more than good enough and our kid has benefited greatly from having traditional instruction (for form, posture, bad-habit prevention, etc) but also enjoys practicing teacher-approved pieces with a tablet-based, gamified MIDI app that reports practice frequency, accuracy, speed, timing variance, etc stats back to the teacher to inform progress as well as areas for improvement. Your advice would be generally applicable to a beginner with goals similar to my kid but off target for a beginner with goals like mine. >> connect it to an el cheapo midi keyboard I agree that just saying "cheap midi keyboard" needs a warning that there are some really poor quality keybeds on the lower-end. The issue is not just the "weighting" of the keys not matching a mechanical piano but also wobble side to side, inconsistent trigger depth, no velocity sensitivity. These issues can substantially impact basic playability and expressiveness to the extent that much of the practice may not fully translate to decent (ie more "standard") key beds. > non-weighted keys will limit you a lot This depends on whether the learner wants to be able to play a traditional mechanical piano which is what "weighted" key beds emulate. Weighted key beds respond very differently compared to what's called "synth action" key beds. Real piano keys require substantially more finger pressure to actuate, go down slower, and come back up slower. The trigger curve is also different than synth action. Personally, I actually prefer a high-quality synth action key bed. I have over a dozen different high-quality synth action key beds on various MIDI-only keyboards as well as synthesizers I've acquired over two decades of playing. While I'm very particular about the feel of the key beds I use, my goal has never been to be a "piano player" but rather a "keyboardist". I feel this is more a matter of personal preference and goals than objective right or wrong. My advice to beginners is to be aware of the differences and make an informed choice by first visiting a music store like Guitar Center and trying out several key beds of different types and quality levels. Regardless of their goals I generally advise beginners to stay away from any MIDI-only controller keyboards which are less than $200 new MSRP or any MIDI+sound source keyboards which are less than $400 new MSRP as those likely have meaningful compromises in basic quality or features to reach that price point. If someone's not experienced, it's also generally a good idea to lean toward better-known brands like Yamaha, Korg, Roland, etc and read pro reviewer's assessments. > The sound is terrible Many people these days don't have the space or funds for a real piano (and even a small one can be heavier than a fridge). If it's not a real piano, then you're triggering a virtual sound source. The quality of any virtual sound source is a more a matter of DSP processing power, sample memory, algorithm quality, etc. There are some very good virtual piano sound engines in relatively inexpensive MIDI keyboards (especially used via Craigslist) as well as in laptop, tablet and even phone-based MIDI software apps. I have a virtually modeled Bosendorfer Grand Piano software plug-in on my Dell XPS 2-in-1 laptop that's pretty indistinguishable from a real one.
• nonamenoslogan 6y ago
  This is the same drivel people who consider themselves "purists" in the watercolour scene spew whenever a new person expresses interest in painting. "You MUST spend $10 a tube minimum to REALLY be painting." "If you don't use 400lb cold press linen paper, you're really wasting paint." Blah. As someone who started out painting with a $10 set of Daler-Rowney on a $4 block of paper from Walmart, I can say wholeheartedly, one can experiment at the cheap end and then be pleasantly surprised at the top end while learning and enjoying themselves. $200 worth of colours you never use because you don't enjoy painting that much is a waste of money. $20 worth of paint you fill every notebook and sketchpad up with doodles is worth every penny. As you progress (and decide if the hobby is even worth doing), you pick up some of those $10 a tube paints and realize the purists weren't wrong, they DO paint better, but they won't make you a better painter. Personally I have a $99 AKAI MPC-Mini with only one octave worth of keys and have only dabbled a bit with it connected to my PC, but its infinitely better than Smule on the iPad and eventually with an app or through lessons on Youtube, one could absolutely learn the skills needed to play a composition an actual piano--all as the GP said, from the comfort of your own home, at your own pace.