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> I think it's just BMW for the 21st century For people that look at cars as status symbols, sure. Also maybe for people that think straightline performance is

> I think it's just BMW for the 21st century For people that look at cars as status symbols, sure. Also maybe for people that think straightline performance is all that matters. All mainstream Tesla's are dogs around turns compared to even baseline luxury German cars.

rconti 6y ago
Sorry, but this is both misinformed, and rudimentary "my first car forum" or "import vs domestic in the 1990s" level analysis of vehicle dynamics. To not even attempt to call out a car model or even a brand or generation, and just hand-wave "baseline luxury German cars", and not attempt to specify what type of cornering you're discussing here. The biggest problem a Tesla would have vs a competitive ICE sport sedan would be mass, which can hurt all vehicle dynamics; likely on the order of 300-400lbs or so (Model 3 LR: ~4k lbs, 330i ~3600lbs, Model S P75 ~4500lbs, 530i ~4000lbs). Of course it's worth noting that none of these vehicles are featherweights, and the extremely low center of gravity of skateboard battery pack vehicles helps them roll vastly less than one would expect, which helps a lot in transitions and steady state cornering. Regardless, both the Model S and the Model 3 are extremely well-balanced and the 3 is surprisingly nimble and adjustable. The 3 has a ton of grip, turns in sharply and gets out of corners FAST. I haven't driven a Model X so I can't say. Source: I instruct, I drive on the track, I own 2 BMWs and 1 Tesla, I've driven numerous BMWs and Teslas including the original roadster on the street and on closed courses. And I've been on car forums for decades and seen endless comments like this.
- seattle_spring 6y ago
  Take a Model 3 on an autocross track or even a windy mountain road. Then take any BMW or Audi priced $10k-$20k lower (and not the boat SUVs) and tell me which one is more fun to drive. Also, a Roadster is definitely not a "mainstream Tesla." I used that word to specifically exclude the Roadster, as it's $250k and a completely different discussion. I agree that using the term "dog" was an exaggeration.
  - xiphias2 6y ago
    > Take a Model 3 on an autocross track or even a windy mountain road Why should I spend a lot of money to improve the 1% of use cases I don't care about? My 2 biggest worries when I'm driving a BMW are hitting somebody who is walking through the red light in the rain and looking at his mobile phone, and going into a pothole. I want the car with the best automatic emergency system and the room to improve, and Tesla is far the best in this category.
  - rconti 6y ago
    Ok, I have a Model 3 and I've autocrossed it and driven it on windy mountain roads, and I have done the same with many BMWs including my own. And the roadster I was referring to was the original one, not the one that, as far as I know, doesn't exist (though, I can't say I pay a lot of attention to Tesla news because the fanboyism is an absolutely toxic combination of .. well, fanboyism, and automotive ignorance). I don't think the Model 3 is quite as fun as a manual transmission non-turbo 6cyl BMW 3 series. I get a lot of tactile enjoyment from shifting, I enjoy the sounds of a nice engine, and I enjoy the power delivery of an internal combustion engine. Of course, all of these things that I enjoy are actually things that make the vehicle slower compared to a dual clutch or modern automatic, or a boosted engine of a similar size, or an electric motor with no gearbox required to keep the engine near its powerband; they're all anachronisms. The extra mass of the Tesla is less of a drawback to me over (say) a turbo BMW 3 series automatic, vice comparing that turbo automatic 3er to a manual BMW 3 series without a turbo. None of these cars can really truly be called "nimble", but I'm quite pleased with the balance, cornering ability and especially outright grip of our RWD Model 3 (with Michelin P4s tires replacing the eco crap of course). It's all a sliding scale, but yes, my primary objection is putting the Teslas in a class entirely below all German sedans. On a mountain road I'd happily take the Model 3 over an A4, even if not the "right" BMW 3 series for the road.

rconti 6y ago

Sorry, but this is both misinformed, and rudimentary "my first car forum" or "import vs domestic in the 1990s" level analysis of vehicle dynamics. To not even attempt to call out a car model or even a brand or generation, and just hand-wave "baseline luxury German cars", and not attempt to specify what type of cornering you're discussing here. The biggest problem a Tesla would have vs a competitive ICE sport sedan would be mass, which can hurt all vehicle dynamics; likely on the order of 300-400lbs or so (Model 3 LR: ~4k lbs, 330i ~3600lbs, Model S P75 ~4500lbs, 530i ~4000lbs). Of course it's worth noting that none of these vehicles are featherweights, and the extremely low center of gravity of skateboard battery pack vehicles helps them roll vastly less than one would expect, which helps a lot in transitions and steady state cornering. Regardless, both the Model S and the Model 3 are extremely well-balanced and the 3 is surprisingly nimble and adjustable. The 3 has a ton of grip, turns in sharply and gets out of corners FAST. I haven't driven a Model X so I can't say. Source: I instruct, I drive on the track, I own 2 BMWs and 1 Tesla, I've driven numerous BMWs and Teslas including the original roadster on the street and on closed courses. And I've been on car forums for decades and seen endless comments like this.

seattle_spring 6y ago
Take a Model 3 on an autocross track or even a windy mountain road. Then take any BMW or Audi priced $10k-$20k lower (and not the boat SUVs) and tell me which one is more fun to drive. Also, a Roadster is definitely not a "mainstream Tesla." I used that word to specifically exclude the Roadster, as it's $250k and a completely different discussion. I agree that using the term "dog" was an exaggeration.
- xiphias2 6y ago
  > Take a Model 3 on an autocross track or even a windy mountain road Why should I spend a lot of money to improve the 1% of use cases I don't care about? My 2 biggest worries when I'm driving a BMW are hitting somebody who is walking through the red light in the rain and looking at his mobile phone, and going into a pothole. I want the car with the best automatic emergency system and the room to improve, and Tesla is far the best in this category.
- rconti 6y ago
  Ok, I have a Model 3 and I've autocrossed it and driven it on windy mountain roads, and I have done the same with many BMWs including my own. And the roadster I was referring to was the original one, not the one that, as far as I know, doesn't exist (though, I can't say I pay a lot of attention to Tesla news because the fanboyism is an absolutely toxic combination of .. well, fanboyism, and automotive ignorance). I don't think the Model 3 is quite as fun as a manual transmission non-turbo 6cyl BMW 3 series. I get a lot of tactile enjoyment from shifting, I enjoy the sounds of a nice engine, and I enjoy the power delivery of an internal combustion engine. Of course, all of these things that I enjoy are actually things that make the vehicle slower compared to a dual clutch or modern automatic, or a boosted engine of a similar size, or an electric motor with no gearbox required to keep the engine near its powerband; they're all anachronisms. The extra mass of the Tesla is less of a drawback to me over (say) a turbo BMW 3 series automatic, vice comparing that turbo automatic 3er to a manual BMW 3 series without a turbo. None of these cars can really truly be called "nimble", but I'm quite pleased with the balance, cornering ability and especially outright grip of our RWD Model 3 (with Michelin P4s tires replacing the eco crap of course). It's all a sliding scale, but yes, my primary objection is putting the Teslas in a class entirely below all German sedans. On a mountain road I'd happily take the Model 3 over an A4, even if not the "right" BMW 3 series for the road.