6 ms·

I'm not convinced we even turned it into science. I think we turned it into a pseudo-science of confirmation biases, poor contextual understanding and even dist

by weego 6y ago

I'm not convinced we even turned it into science. I think we turned it into a pseudo-science of confirmation biases, poor contextual understanding and even distain for our own users while actively devaluing the role that design plays in interaction.

_trampeltier 6y ago
No, most todays UI is not really great. On websites you often can't navigate just with the keyboard and shortcuts does not work at all. An a really terrible new UI thing are these on / off sliders. So often is not clear where the slider is, because it's not clear if the slider or the background is colored. Also a lot of new software comes with shortcuts, but you would need 3 hands to push all buttons for it. Also for me, all the Google style, round, flat, to much color, I just can't see it anymore. I hate the look so much.
- pc86 6y ago
  Saying "I can't navigate a website just using my keyboard" is sort of like saying "I can't drive my car just using the steering." Well, of course you can't. You're not supposed to be able to, unless you have some sort of assistance hardware/software loaded that articulates/emulates the missing control(s).
  - TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
    From the very beginning, the web was multimodal. Why can't you navigate it with just a keyboard?
  - protomyth 6y ago
    I'm a little confused how a person can play a 3D video game with just a keyboard, but a website is beyond control? I don't think a car is a good comparison as it is in 3D space unlike a website.
    - afavour 6y ago
      Because there’s a very small defined set of actions a person can take in such games: backwards, forwards, left, right, etc. By comparison pages have dozens of links, form fields, menus, etc. It’s not that they can’t be navigated with the keyboard alone, it’s that it’s rarely the most efficient way of doing it. Clicking a link will always be quicker than pressing tab X number of times to select it.
      - bmn__ 6y ago
        > pressing tab X number of times You seem to be under the impression that Netscape style navigation is the best a keyboard can do, which makes the argument an involuntary strawman. Spatial navigation and caret navigation blow a pointing device out of the water.
      - LocalPCGuy 6y ago
        Tab is not how most keyboard only users navigate web pages. There are an entire set of built-in keyboard navigation utilities for those that cannot use a pointing device.
        V-2 6y ago
        If I have never learned this entire set, I bet you that my mum won't learn it. Most users not only aren't power users - they have zero interest in becoming power users.
      - ummonk 6y ago
        The fact that pressing tab x times is so slow is exactly the point. Our support for keyboard navigation is really crappy.
  - _trampeltier 6y ago
    Just when is a thread about VT terminals also an HN front now, have you ever seen how fast people could navigate on those terminals 20, 30 years ago. No website can do the same thing today, no mater how much CPU power you have.
    - anthk 6y ago
      Even Lynx/Links is super fast on the supported sites.
  - tucosan 6y ago
    I navigate the web mostly via keyboard. Vimium [1] is the First Plugin I install on every desktop browser. The car analogy makes little sense. [1]: https://vimium.github.io https://vimium.github.io
    - 627467 6y ago
      Heard of it before but you comment made me actually see vimium in action. It seems like a potential tool for me! Thank you. I'm intrigued because navigating this way makes UI much closer to a touchscreen experience: there's no mouseover, mouseout, focus states.
  - treeman79 6y ago
    In high school, I came into computer class only to find the mouse was broken. Whatever, I used keyboard commands for the entire class period; was fine. Next day they handed me a fine for breaking the mouse. Turns out they didn’t think it possible for someone to use a computer without a mouse. Took a legally threatening letter to get them to back off.
  - LocalH 6y ago
    What proof do you have that you're "not supposed to be able to" navigate a website with only your keyboard? What authoritative statement dictates that the web should require usage of a mouse? If you take a second to look at that statement, you should be able to see how it is quite ableist (possibly unintentionally).
  - LocalPCGuy 6y ago
    Not everyone can use a mouse or similar UI interaction device, but not only is a keyboard generally usable, there are a ton of accessibility devices that can mimic a keyboard's signals. Not nearly as simple to emulate a mouse or similar pointing device. That's why keyboard usability is important.
- afavour 6y ago
  Why is keyboard use the pinnacle of UI? Pretty much every device has some kind of mouse-like device attached to it, and trackpads with good scrolling (e.g. Apple ones) are a wonderfully intuitive way to control movement. I get that HN likes using the keyboard for stuff like terminals, I do too. But web pages aren’t terminal applications.
  - kls 6y ago
    I was with a fortune 10 company as a tech executive, we had an effort to move all of the call center technology over to web based technologies in a modernization effort. The call center lost over 15 million dollars in revenue in the first week when we moved from the old UNIX terminal app to the web UI, after an extensive study it was deemed the issue was loss of speed due to lack of keyboard shortcuts and navigation. For power-users keyboard shortcuts allow them to navigate and use the app up to 3 to 4 times faster than a mouse based interface. If you ever watch a 3D artist work in Max, Maya or Blender this becomes evident quickly. It is not that keyboard use is the pinnacle, it is that in high use cases it saves time and money.
    - afavour 6y ago
      The situation you’re describing is one where trained professionals use one and only one UI. Web sites aren’t like that. They’re used by a vast number of people of differing technical ability, and different sites do incredibly different things. I’m not saying a keyboard UI is never right. I’m saying that it isn’t universally right.
    - treis 6y ago
      I do this for a living and I am constantly amazed at the amount of money we are paid to make things worse. Of course we add in things like chat, email, and other channels but the day to day experience of the users usually gets a lot worse. The systems we put in are easier to use and have more controls around who can do what. It makes the users more interchangeable and cuts training time. The cost of that is the top speed that users can get stuff done is drastically reduced.
  - teorema 6y ago
stjohnswarts 6y ago
You also have to realize that it's a feedback cycle, the more interfaces that converge the more users just get used to them, over and over, so decisions get made that tighten then loop. And then you get something like Unity and gnome 3 :D

by weego 6y ago

_trampeltier 6y ago

No, most todays UI is not really great. On websites you often can't navigate just with the keyboard and shortcuts does not work at all. An a really terrible new UI thing are these on / off sliders. So often is not clear where the slider is, because it's not clear if the slider or the background is colored. Also a lot of new software comes with shortcuts, but you would need 3 hands to push all buttons for it. Also for me, all the Google style, round, flat, to much color, I just can't see it anymore. I hate the look so much.

pc86 6y ago
Saying "I can't navigate a website just using my keyboard" is sort of like saying "I can't drive my car just using the steering." Well, of course you can't. You're not supposed to be able to, unless you have some sort of assistance hardware/software loaded that articulates/emulates the missing control(s).
- TazeTSchnitzel 6y ago
  From the very beginning, the web was multimodal. Why can't you navigate it with just a keyboard?
- protomyth 6y ago
  I'm a little confused how a person can play a 3D video game with just a keyboard, but a website is beyond control? I don't think a car is a good comparison as it is in 3D space unlike a website.
  - afavour 6y ago
    Because there’s a very small defined set of actions a person can take in such games: backwards, forwards, left, right, etc. By comparison pages have dozens of links, form fields, menus, etc. It’s not that they can’t be navigated with the keyboard alone, it’s that it’s rarely the most efficient way of doing it. Clicking a link will always be quicker than pressing tab X number of times to select it.
    - bmn__ 6y ago
      > pressing tab X number of times You seem to be under the impression that Netscape style navigation is the best a keyboard can do, which makes the argument an involuntary strawman. Spatial navigation and caret navigation blow a pointing device out of the water.
    - LocalPCGuy 6y ago
      Tab is not how most keyboard only users navigate web pages. There are an entire set of built-in keyboard navigation utilities for those that cannot use a pointing device.
      - V-2 6y ago
        If I have never learned this entire set, I bet you that my mum won't learn it. Most users not only aren't power users - they have zero interest in becoming power users.
    - ummonk 6y ago
      The fact that pressing tab x times is so slow is exactly the point. Our support for keyboard navigation is really crappy.
- _trampeltier 6y ago
  Just when is a thread about VT terminals also an HN front now, have you ever seen how fast people could navigate on those terminals 20, 30 years ago. No website can do the same thing today, no mater how much CPU power you have.
  - anthk 6y ago
    Even Lynx/Links is super fast on the supported sites.
- tucosan 6y ago
  I navigate the web mostly via keyboard. Vimium [1] is the First Plugin I install on every desktop browser. The car analogy makes little sense. [1]: https://vimium.github.io https://vimium.github.io
  - 627467 6y ago
    Heard of it before but you comment made me actually see vimium in action. It seems like a potential tool for me! Thank you. I'm intrigued because navigating this way makes UI much closer to a touchscreen experience: there's no mouseover, mouseout, focus states.
- treeman79 6y ago
  In high school, I came into computer class only to find the mouse was broken. Whatever, I used keyboard commands for the entire class period; was fine. Next day they handed me a fine for breaking the mouse. Turns out they didn’t think it possible for someone to use a computer without a mouse. Took a legally threatening letter to get them to back off.
- LocalH 6y ago
  What proof do you have that you're "not supposed to be able to" navigate a website with only your keyboard? What authoritative statement dictates that the web should require usage of a mouse? If you take a second to look at that statement, you should be able to see how it is quite ableist (possibly unintentionally).
- LocalPCGuy 6y ago
  Not everyone can use a mouse or similar UI interaction device, but not only is a keyboard generally usable, there are a ton of accessibility devices that can mimic a keyboard's signals. Not nearly as simple to emulate a mouse or similar pointing device. That's why keyboard usability is important.
afavour 6y ago
Why is keyboard use the pinnacle of UI? Pretty much every device has some kind of mouse-like device attached to it, and trackpads with good scrolling (e.g. Apple ones) are a wonderfully intuitive way to control movement. I get that HN likes using the keyboard for stuff like terminals, I do too. But web pages aren’t terminal applications.
- kls 6y ago
  I was with a fortune 10 company as a tech executive, we had an effort to move all of the call center technology over to web based technologies in a modernization effort. The call center lost over 15 million dollars in revenue in the first week when we moved from the old UNIX terminal app to the web UI, after an extensive study it was deemed the issue was loss of speed due to lack of keyboard shortcuts and navigation. For power-users keyboard shortcuts allow them to navigate and use the app up to 3 to 4 times faster than a mouse based interface. If you ever watch a 3D artist work in Max, Maya or Blender this becomes evident quickly. It is not that keyboard use is the pinnacle, it is that in high use cases it saves time and money.
  - afavour 6y ago
    The situation you’re describing is one where trained professionals use one and only one UI. Web sites aren’t like that. They’re used by a vast number of people of differing technical ability, and different sites do incredibly different things. I’m not saying a keyboard UI is never right. I’m saying that it isn’t universally right.
  - treis 6y ago
    I do this for a living and I am constantly amazed at the amount of money we are paid to make things worse. Of course we add in things like chat, email, and other channels but the day to day experience of the users usually gets a lot worse. The systems we put in are easier to use and have more controls around who can do what. It makes the users more interchangeable and cuts training time. The cost of that is the top speed that users can get stuff done is drastically reduced.
- teorema 6y ago

stjohnswarts 6y ago

You also have to realize that it's a feedback cycle, the more interfaces that converge the more users just get used to them, over and over, so decisions get made that tighten then loop. And then you get something like Unity and gnome 3 :D