6 ms·

Producer of Netflix Three body problem found poisoned

54 points by Ahmedb 6y ago

reedf1 6y ago
Given the subject matter of the books - I wouldn't want to touch the production of these. And that's sad.
- AznHisoka 6y ago
  Can you summarize what would make these books so sensitive/controversial?
  - Roritharr 6y ago
    It has a strong chinese perspective, there are themes in the book which are sexist (weak willed females/effiminate men are at fault for dooming humanity...) and you could read a lot more into it if you wanted.
    - throway1gjj 6y ago
      That's controversial in the valley?
    - polytely 6y ago
      >there are themes in the book which are sexist (weak willed females/effiminate men are at fault for dooming humanity...) Huh, that wasn't what I took away from it while reading, might be lack of awareness on my part but I feel like saying that is a theme of the book which is sexist seems a bit much to me. could be interpreted as maybe, if you could name examples?
      - Roritharr 6y ago
        Maybe "are" was too harshly worded. I don't share that viewpoint myself but that's what the most complaints were about that I'm aware of. I probably should have written "can be interpreted as"
      - readarticle 6y ago
        The detailed commentary on the noticeably androgynous physical and “mental” characteristics of the future males in a society that has decided the trisolaran issue doesn’t exist anymore and has fully accepted defeatism (through non natural means, but still). IIRC, this society then attempts to pursue diplomacy only to get massacred before the archaic male heroically sets up a MAD situation. The archaic male then controversially hands over control of the MAD response to a weak willed/nuance entertaining female, and the trisolarans immediately attack. Apologies if I’ve mixed the timeline, it’s been a while and the human story draped over the skeleton of an interstellar war was a bit thin.
        polytely 6y ago
        Huh, I guess I have to do a reread then I never connected those dots.
        QuesnayJr 6y ago
        I think the message of the book is more complex than that. The character who sets up the MAD situation spends half of the book having already given up, before discovering the MAD solution. At the same time, Earth pursues a straightforward military strategy of building a large space fleet to stop the Trisolarians, but are unable to anticipate the aliens' superior technology makes their efforts futile. Ultimately, Earth sends the MAD signal, and ends up destroyed. The goal of the artificially installed defeatism was to make humanity flee the Earth, and it's only the those who fled the Earth who survive its destruction.
    - rkachowski 6y ago
      I read them a few years ago and I remember them being pretty critical of chinese policy and the cultural revolution. The second contact with the trisolarans basically being a big FU from the scientist that was exploited her whole life by the government.
      - Roritharr 6y ago
        Well, I've read many interpreted it as critique on the petty small-mindedness of individualism. Chinese Viewpoints are fascinating in some respects.
    - QuesnayJr 6y ago
      I think the main character in the third book is supposed to be ambiguous, because she is heroic in her own way. The novels clearly set up a universe where the logic of the Dark Forest implies that the universe itself is doomed to destruction, and this doom will come irrespective of the conflict between Earth and the Trisolarians. She is the one character who always rejects the logic of the Dark Forest, and is willing to hope for the best from aliens. This doesn't particularly work out, but neither does the alternative.
  - reedf1 6y ago
    A legitimate Chinese perspective on early Maoist China onward. It doesn't cover up the horror that took place. The first few chapters are especially difficult - with lynchings of academics (e.g. cultural revolution). It also covers how modern chinese people deal with that.
    - koboll 6y ago
      I'm glad a big-budget production is shining a light on that part of history. Extremely under-depicted and necessary to review and reflect on, especially right now
    - dwighttk 6y ago
      Odd. I remember some of that from the first book but Liu Cixin lives in China and doesn’t seem to suffer for it. He also wrote the source material for Wandering Earth which did very well in Chinese theatres and is pretty pro-China.
      - riffraff 6y ago
        I mean the book literally shows a democratic "optimistic" society doesn't work and an authoritarian "pessimistic" one is the only workable outcome, I don't see why the PRC would have anything to object to that.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    It's about the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution . Any kind of history outside the Party in China is inevitably going to be a bit dangerous. While there are direct references to the CR in the first few chapters, the real cleverness is the indirect approach and the (traditional) use of SF to critique the present society. In the book, advanced higher-dimensional aliens have invaded earth .. with a pair of subatomic particles. Since these are under their full control, they are able to warp reality in higher-order physics experiments to prevent humans ever learning certain things. The parallel with the CR and Maoism (or indeed post-Bernays propaganda states) in general is obvious - the ability to finely control what information someone receives, especially at critical moments, is the ability to control what they think and know.
    - QuesnayJr 6y ago
      Wasn't Xi's family attacked during the CR? I would think that makes it a safer topic than most.
      - baybal2 6y ago
        No, this is not how you think. Xi puts the blame for his misfortunes on "wrong kind of dilettante communists," and being wronged, not that CR was wrong, it's just some poor pissants perpetrating it were wrong for taking on grand "true communist" personas who his family were. So, the only wrong thing about it he sees is that the he wasn't at the helm back then, and not acknowledged as being worthy to join the purgers.
    - peacefulhat 6y ago
      You're absolutely wrong. The book uses the cultural revolution to contrast with the progress of the modern era.
  - peteretep 6y ago
    There’s a long section on the excesses of the cultural revolution. The Chinese originals reordered the plot (and its reverted in the English translations) to diminish that aspect of it a bit.
    - whimsicalism 6y ago
      It's not taboo to criticize the cultural revolution in China.
      - peteretep 6y ago
        The Wikipedia entry that says that’s the reason the two languages present the book in different orders needs updating then.
      - rurban 6y ago
        But movies about don't get released. Even the biggest ones.
- jml7c5 6y ago
  This seems a bit too conspiracy-minded. The article notes that it's likely a colleague who poisoned him. Besides, why would the Chinese government go down that route when they already have the power to censor and direct the production?
  - wayneftw 6y ago
    As if you need to be conspiracy-minded to think the Chinese government will straight up assassinate you for pushing the wrong message.
    - Aeronwen 6y ago
      That's the point. They don't need to be covert and use poison.
      - wayneftw 6y ago
        Ahh, thanks for clarifying. Yes, that's a good point.
rkachowski 6y ago
This is some pretty crude wallbreaker strategy.
mellosouls 6y ago
I think it's a bit early to be assuming Chinese oppression tactics (though understandable). Incidentally, this book seems to have some sort of cult critical status; I personally found it very poorly written, despite the original ideas in the plot. I hope Netflix are able to turn it into something much better in their translation to the screen.
- mattacular 6y ago
  I've only read the first book (the English translation) and thought the writing was fine? I believe the translation was done by the author's brother. Really enjoyed the book but don't see how they'd turn it into a compelling tv show.
  - derwiki 6y ago
    The translations are widely regarded as well done. I’ve heard this series described as a “philosophical fiction” (like Asimov’s Foundation series) where you don’t specifically follow characters and their development; but rather the characters just exist to advance the overall story. It’s offputting to many because it seems simple and lacking character development.
- triplesex_ 6y ago
  Perhaps you think the book poorly written due to the fact that a translation of the original work was read? Or did you, in fact, read it in the original Chinese? Also, I doubt very much that Netflix shall produce something worth my time . . .
  - mellosouls 6y ago
    The "poor translation" idea did occur to me and I nearly included it in my comment as potential, but I found it so bad it seemed unlikely as I thought the problems were more fundamental than that. Netflix has some fine series, I'm sure it's perfectly capable of doing a good job with good source material; and hopefully capable of being transformative when the source quality is more mixed.
2Gkashmiri 6y ago
I... attempted to read the three body problem. I got as far as the obervatory I think. It was like a year ago. I has exhaused because listening would make me fall asleep and then I would have to find the last remembered position... dang. It was long. Edit: a scene where someone comes out of an obervatory or what was it..... edit 2: why is this being downvoted.... i wrote an observation, didnt offend anybody, what??
- jgwil2 6y ago
  I haven't downvoted you, but if you want an honest answer, it's probably because people see this comment as low value. People generally upvote comments that contribute to the discussion. This comment doesn't address the article or really say anything beyond, "I didn't like this book."
nkurz 6y ago
How does this series relate to the film and other series that have previously been announced? As far as I can tell, there is a movie by Yoozoo that was finished in 2015 but never released: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three-Body_Problem_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three-Body_Problem_(film) There is a Chinese produced series made by Tencent that (I think) is still in production: https://www.straitstimes.com/lifestyle/entertainment/china-to-turn-liu-cixins-science-fiction-novel-into-live-action-drama https://www.straitstimes.com/lifestyle/entertainment/china-t... And there is also an animated series by Bilibili that is scheduled to come out in 2021: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-11/18/c_138564215.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-11/18/c_138564215.htm Is the Netflix version additional, or a replacement for one of these?
BugWatch 6y ago
Considering the utter hack job and the travesty that was the last season (and a half?) of Game of Thrones, David Benioff and D.B. Weiss really are not any kind of a selling point for me personally. I'm still incredulous it got made and released in such state. So, frankly, it's quite the opposite. What's the visual equivalent of "not touching something with a 3.048 meter pole"? "Not observing a thing with a fiber-optic cable"? I jest, sure, but that bitter mental taste in my brain still remains.
mrbonner 6y ago
I read 20 pages into the kindle ebook but gave up the first book of the series. I know the story/plot is quite good according to the reviews and whatnots. But the whole writing style is not very elegant and hard to follow. I am not sure if it is because of bad translation.

54 points by Ahmedb 6y ago

reedf1 6y ago

Given the subject matter of the books - I wouldn't want to touch the production of these. And that's sad.

AznHisoka 6y ago
Can you summarize what would make these books so sensitive/controversial?
- Roritharr 6y ago
  It has a strong chinese perspective, there are themes in the book which are sexist (weak willed females/effiminate men are at fault for dooming humanity...) and you could read a lot more into it if you wanted.
  - throway1gjj 6y ago
    That's controversial in the valley?
  - polytely 6y ago
    >there are themes in the book which are sexist (weak willed females/effiminate men are at fault for dooming humanity...) Huh, that wasn't what I took away from it while reading, might be lack of awareness on my part but I feel like saying that is a theme of the book which is sexist seems a bit much to me. could be interpreted as maybe, if you could name examples?
    - Roritharr 6y ago
      Maybe "are" was too harshly worded. I don't share that viewpoint myself but that's what the most complaints were about that I'm aware of. I probably should have written "can be interpreted as"
    - readarticle 6y ago
      The detailed commentary on the noticeably androgynous physical and “mental” characteristics of the future males in a society that has decided the trisolaran issue doesn’t exist anymore and has fully accepted defeatism (through non natural means, but still). IIRC, this society then attempts to pursue diplomacy only to get massacred before the archaic male heroically sets up a MAD situation. The archaic male then controversially hands over control of the MAD response to a weak willed/nuance entertaining female, and the trisolarans immediately attack. Apologies if I’ve mixed the timeline, it’s been a while and the human story draped over the skeleton of an interstellar war was a bit thin.
      - polytely 6y ago
        Huh, I guess I have to do a reread then I never connected those dots.
      - QuesnayJr 6y ago
        I think the message of the book is more complex than that. The character who sets up the MAD situation spends half of the book having already given up, before discovering the MAD solution. At the same time, Earth pursues a straightforward military strategy of building a large space fleet to stop the Trisolarians, but are unable to anticipate the aliens' superior technology makes their efforts futile. Ultimately, Earth sends the MAD signal, and ends up destroyed. The goal of the artificially installed defeatism was to make humanity flee the Earth, and it's only the those who fled the Earth who survive its destruction.
  - rkachowski 6y ago
    I read them a few years ago and I remember them being pretty critical of chinese policy and the cultural revolution. The second contact with the trisolarans basically being a big FU from the scientist that was exploited her whole life by the government.
    - Roritharr 6y ago
      Well, I've read many interpreted it as critique on the petty small-mindedness of individualism. Chinese Viewpoints are fascinating in some respects.
  - QuesnayJr 6y ago
    I think the main character in the third book is supposed to be ambiguous, because she is heroic in her own way. The novels clearly set up a universe where the logic of the Dark Forest implies that the universe itself is doomed to destruction, and this doom will come irrespective of the conflict between Earth and the Trisolarians. She is the one character who always rejects the logic of the Dark Forest, and is willing to hope for the best from aliens. This doesn't particularly work out, but neither does the alternative.
- reedf1 6y ago
  A legitimate Chinese perspective on early Maoist China onward. It doesn't cover up the horror that took place. The first few chapters are especially difficult - with lynchings of academics (e.g. cultural revolution). It also covers how modern chinese people deal with that.
  - koboll 6y ago
    I'm glad a big-budget production is shining a light on that part of history. Extremely under-depicted and necessary to review and reflect on, especially right now
  - dwighttk 6y ago
    Odd. I remember some of that from the first book but Liu Cixin lives in China and doesn’t seem to suffer for it. He also wrote the source material for Wandering Earth which did very well in Chinese theatres and is pretty pro-China.
    - riffraff 6y ago
      I mean the book literally shows a democratic "optimistic" society doesn't work and an authoritarian "pessimistic" one is the only workable outcome, I don't see why the PRC would have anything to object to that.
- pjc50 6y ago
  It's about the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution . Any kind of history outside the Party in China is inevitably going to be a bit dangerous. While there are direct references to the CR in the first few chapters, the real cleverness is the indirect approach and the (traditional) use of SF to critique the present society. In the book, advanced higher-dimensional aliens have invaded earth .. with a pair of subatomic particles. Since these are under their full control, they are able to warp reality in higher-order physics experiments to prevent humans ever learning certain things. The parallel with the CR and Maoism (or indeed post-Bernays propaganda states) in general is obvious - the ability to finely control what information someone receives, especially at critical moments, is the ability to control what they think and know.
  - QuesnayJr 6y ago
    Wasn't Xi's family attacked during the CR? I would think that makes it a safer topic than most.
    - baybal2 6y ago
      No, this is not how you think. Xi puts the blame for his misfortunes on "wrong kind of dilettante communists," and being wronged, not that CR was wrong, it's just some poor pissants perpetrating it were wrong for taking on grand "true communist" personas who his family were. So, the only wrong thing about it he sees is that the he wasn't at the helm back then, and not acknowledged as being worthy to join the purgers.
  - peacefulhat 6y ago
    You're absolutely wrong. The book uses the cultural revolution to contrast with the progress of the modern era.
- peteretep 6y ago
  There’s a long section on the excesses of the cultural revolution. The Chinese originals reordered the plot (and its reverted in the English translations) to diminish that aspect of it a bit.
  - whimsicalism 6y ago
    It's not taboo to criticize the cultural revolution in China.
    - peteretep 6y ago
      The Wikipedia entry that says that’s the reason the two languages present the book in different orders needs updating then.
    - rurban 6y ago
      But movies about don't get released. Even the biggest ones.
jml7c5 6y ago
This seems a bit too conspiracy-minded. The article notes that it's likely a colleague who poisoned him. Besides, why would the Chinese government go down that route when they already have the power to censor and direct the production?
- wayneftw 6y ago
  As if you need to be conspiracy-minded to think the Chinese government will straight up assassinate you for pushing the wrong message.
  - Aeronwen 6y ago
    That's the point. They don't need to be covert and use poison.
    - wayneftw 6y ago
      Ahh, thanks for clarifying. Yes, that's a good point.

rkachowski 6y ago

This is some pretty crude wallbreaker strategy.

mellosouls 6y ago

I think it's a bit early to be assuming Chinese oppression tactics (though understandable). Incidentally, this book seems to have some sort of cult critical status; I personally found it very poorly written, despite the original ideas in the plot. I hope Netflix are able to turn it into something much better in their translation to the screen.

mattacular 6y ago
I've only read the first book (the English translation) and thought the writing was fine? I believe the translation was done by the author's brother. Really enjoyed the book but don't see how they'd turn it into a compelling tv show.
- derwiki 6y ago
  The translations are widely regarded as well done. I’ve heard this series described as a “philosophical fiction” (like Asimov’s Foundation series) where you don’t specifically follow characters and their development; but rather the characters just exist to advance the overall story. It’s offputting to many because it seems simple and lacking character development.
triplesex_ 6y ago
Perhaps you think the book poorly written due to the fact that a translation of the original work was read? Or did you, in fact, read it in the original Chinese? Also, I doubt very much that Netflix shall produce something worth my time . . .
- mellosouls 6y ago
  The "poor translation" idea did occur to me and I nearly included it in my comment as potential, but I found it so bad it seemed unlikely as I thought the problems were more fundamental than that. Netflix has some fine series, I'm sure it's perfectly capable of doing a good job with good source material; and hopefully capable of being transformative when the source quality is more mixed.

2Gkashmiri 6y ago

I... attempted to read the three body problem. I got as far as the obervatory I think. It was like a year ago. I has exhaused because listening would make me fall asleep and then I would have to find the last remembered position... dang. It was long. Edit: a scene where someone comes out of an obervatory or what was it..... edit 2: why is this being downvoted.... i wrote an observation, didnt offend anybody, what??

jgwil2 6y ago
I haven't downvoted you, but if you want an honest answer, it's probably because people see this comment as low value. People generally upvote comments that contribute to the discussion. This comment doesn't address the article or really say anything beyond, "I didn't like this book."

nkurz 6y ago

How does this series relate to the film and other series that have previously been announced? As far as I can tell, there is a movie by Yoozoo that was finished in 2015 but never released: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three-Body_Problem_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three-Body_Problem_(film) There is a Chinese produced series made by Tencent that (I think) is still in production: https://www.straitstimes.com/lifestyle/entertainment/china-to-turn-liu-cixins-science-fiction-novel-into-live-action-drama https://www.straitstimes.com/lifestyle/entertainment/china-t... And there is also an animated series by Bilibili that is scheduled to come out in 2021: http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-11/18/c_138564215.htm http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/2019-11/18/c_138564215.htm Is the Netflix version additional, or a replacement for one of these?

BugWatch 6y ago

Considering the utter hack job and the travesty that was the last season (and a half?) of Game of Thrones, David Benioff and D.B. Weiss really are not any kind of a selling point for me personally. I'm still incredulous it got made and released in such state. So, frankly, it's quite the opposite. What's the visual equivalent of "not touching something with a 3.048 meter pole"? "Not observing a thing with a fiber-optic cable"? I jest, sure, but that bitter mental taste in my brain still remains.

mrbonner 6y ago

I read 20 pages into the kindle ebook but gave up the first book of the series. I know the story/plot is quite good according to the reviews and whatnots. But the whole writing style is not very elegant and hard to follow. I am not sure if it is because of bad translation.