3 ms·

My understanding is that you move to SF to optimize for money/status, not for livability.

jacobolus 6y ago
Other than the insane rents and housing prices (and obviously tempered this year by the pandemic), SF is a very livable city. Tons of stuff within walk distance, great weather all year, lots of interesting distinct neighborhoods, much better than average public transit for the US (still garbage by world standards), lots of restaurant choices, all sorts of "cultural" stuff happening all the time, plenty of neighborhood festivals of one kind of another, etc. There are certainly some people very concerned about money/status (as you will find anywhere), but SF is also chock full of weird people doing their own thing, much more than most places in the USA.
- tolbish 6y ago
  Livability also includes traffic, how much space you have, cleanliness, and safety of public transit. Is it really the city to start or raise a family in?
  - jacobolus 6y ago
    Well... livability for who then? For someone who wants to have a large home workshop to build boats in, built on cheap land, yeah, it's not a great place. For someone who wants to live on a farm and grow all their own food, not so great. For a childless couple who needs a 5 bedroom house and professionally landscape-architected decorative garden to show their coworkers they have made it (I know several such people in the South Bay), not great. For a family of 7 who want each kid to have their own room, not so great. However it is great for anyone who doesn't like making every trip by car, or who wants to live somewhere where there are constantly new things to do. > Is it really the city to start or raise a family in? I have a 1.5 year old and a 4 year old, have been living in SF for about 8 years and intend to stay indefinitely. So for me, yes. But many middle class families have different criteria. e.g. there are many families who move out of SF because they feel they have run out of space in a small rent-controlled apartment and can't afford a bigger one; or they need childcare help from family who live elsewhere; or they don't want to send their children to public schools alongside working class children ('the average test scores are too low'), but can't afford expensive private schools. Etc. In my personal opinion, for anyone under the age of 20 it is a much more fun place than almost anywhere in the USA, with a much wider variety of resources available. Suburbia sucks for young people (speaking from personal experience after growing up in a "nice" suburb). YMMV.
    - tolbish 6y ago
      There is certainly a wide spectrum of livable cities between SF and suburbia.
      - jacobolus 6y ago
        You need to state what your criteria are. "Livable" is relative, and poorly defined. Empirically, there is very high demand to live in SF, indicating that many people find it more "livable" by their own criteria than alternatives.
        tolbish 6y ago
        The context is given by the article we are discussing. Sure you can find entertainment and enjoy nice things, but it won't really feel like a community.
        jacobolus 6y ago
        In the pre-pandemic era I could walk all around the neighborhood with my then-2-year-old kid and make friendly smalltalk with all of the elderly dog walkers, retail/restaurant staffers, small business owners, city employees, other families from working class to super wealthy, high school students, retired musicians living in SROs, socially awkward genius engineer dudes, retired real estate moguls driving vintage cars around, cops and firefighters, skater kids, middle aged Mexicans playing cards, artists painting the scenery on portable easels, homeless veterans, people unironically dressed like wizards or cowboys, etc. etc., as well as chat with miscellaneous tourists from around the world and visitors from around the Bay Area. I found almost everyone to be pretty friendly and welcoming. But it's true that walking with a child (or a dog) generally makes people more open to conversation, so YMMV. I don't feel like I have a large tight-knit friend group, but the neighborhood feels plenty like a "community" to me, even though a substantial proportion of the people around are likely to only stay for a few yars. Maybe you have a different idea of what a community is. Obviously the pandemic has radically changed everything; few people spend lots of time chatting with neighbors in close proximity anymore. There are also a lot of small businesses which have turned over or are likely to in the next year or two, based substantially on the lack of Federal financial support during this pandemic. We'll see how the neighborhood looks once things have settled down in a few years.
redis_mlc 6y ago
I live in SF, and here's how it works: - people are friendly, but weary of the homeless and corona issues - gay people move to SF for obvious reasons - young people move to SF instead of the Peninsula to date - tech people move to SF instead of other regions for the jobs - most families move out when they have children because of the school admission and location policies (if you have 2 kids in elementary grades, they might have to go to different schools, etc.) - if you're Republican and mention Trump in the office, you will likely have to find a new job. The downtown was not burned by Marxists (yet), but rents are still too high for all.
- stripline 6y ago
  What is the peninsula people keep referring to? Sorry, I live on the east coast and have only been to CA a handful of times.

Other than the insane rents and housing prices (and obviously tempered this year by the pandemic), SF is a very livable city. Tons of stuff within walk distance, great weather all year, lots of interesting distinct neighborhoods, much better than average public transit for the US (still garbage by world standards), lots of restaurant choices, all sorts of "cultural" stuff happening all the time, plenty of neighborhood festivals of one kind of another, etc. There are certainly some people very concerned about money/status (as you will find anywhere), but SF is also chock full of weird people doing their own thing, much more than most places in the USA.

tolbish 6y ago
Livability also includes traffic, how much space you have, cleanliness, and safety of public transit. Is it really the city to start or raise a family in?
- jacobolus 6y ago
  Well... livability for who then? For someone who wants to have a large home workshop to build boats in, built on cheap land, yeah, it's not a great place. For someone who wants to live on a farm and grow all their own food, not so great. For a childless couple who needs a 5 bedroom house and professionally landscape-architected decorative garden to show their coworkers they have made it (I know several such people in the South Bay), not great. For a family of 7 who want each kid to have their own room, not so great. However it is great for anyone who doesn't like making every trip by car, or who wants to live somewhere where there are constantly new things to do. > Is it really the city to start or raise a family in? I have a 1.5 year old and a 4 year old, have been living in SF for about 8 years and intend to stay indefinitely. So for me, yes. But many middle class families have different criteria. e.g. there are many families who move out of SF because they feel they have run out of space in a small rent-controlled apartment and can't afford a bigger one; or they need childcare help from family who live elsewhere; or they don't want to send their children to public schools alongside working class children ('the average test scores are too low'), but can't afford expensive private schools. Etc. In my personal opinion, for anyone under the age of 20 it is a much more fun place than almost anywhere in the USA, with a much wider variety of resources available. Suburbia sucks for young people (speaking from personal experience after growing up in a "nice" suburb). YMMV.
  - tolbish 6y ago
    There is certainly a wide spectrum of livable cities between SF and suburbia.
    - jacobolus 6y ago
      You need to state what your criteria are. "Livable" is relative, and poorly defined. Empirically, there is very high demand to live in SF, indicating that many people find it more "livable" by their own criteria than alternatives.
      - tolbish 6y ago
        The context is given by the article we are discussing. Sure you can find entertainment and enjoy nice things, but it won't really feel like a community.
        jacobolus 6y ago
        In the pre-pandemic era I could walk all around the neighborhood with my then-2-year-old kid and make friendly smalltalk with all of the elderly dog walkers, retail/restaurant staffers, small business owners, city employees, other families from working class to super wealthy, high school students, retired musicians living in SROs, socially awkward genius engineer dudes, retired real estate moguls driving vintage cars around, cops and firefighters, skater kids, middle aged Mexicans playing cards, artists painting the scenery on portable easels, homeless veterans, people unironically dressed like wizards or cowboys, etc. etc., as well as chat with miscellaneous tourists from around the world and visitors from around the Bay Area. I found almost everyone to be pretty friendly and welcoming. But it's true that walking with a child (or a dog) generally makes people more open to conversation, so YMMV. I don't feel like I have a large tight-knit friend group, but the neighborhood feels plenty like a "community" to me, even though a substantial proportion of the people around are likely to only stay for a few yars. Maybe you have a different idea of what a community is. Obviously the pandemic has radically changed everything; few people spend lots of time chatting with neighbors in close proximity anymore. There are also a lot of small businesses which have turned over or are likely to in the next year or two, based substantially on the lack of Federal financial support during this pandemic. We'll see how the neighborhood looks once things have settled down in a few years.

redis_mlc 6y ago

I live in SF, and here's how it works: - people are friendly, but weary of the homeless and corona issues - gay people move to SF for obvious reasons - young people move to SF instead of the Peninsula to date - tech people move to SF instead of other regions for the jobs - most families move out when they have children because of the school admission and location policies (if you have 2 kids in elementary grades, they might have to go to different schools, etc.) - if you're Republican and mention Trump in the office, you will likely have to find a new job. The downtown was not burned by Marxists (yet), but rents are still too high for all.

stripline 6y ago
What is the peninsula people keep referring to? Sorry, I live on the east coast and have only been to CA a handful of times.