5 ms·

More difficult things have been accomplished in the past. There is a strategy to a union drive, you start with little things like getting everyone to wear a re

More difficult things have been accomplished in the past. There is a strategy to a union drive, you start with little things like getting everyone to wear a red pin to work on the same day. You talk to every individual worker, one on one. It’s hard work, and management never plays fair- but it can be done. If they sack the unskilled workers the skilled ones will strike. That’s the whole idea- everyone negotiates together as a unit.

LatteLazy 6y ago
You know amazon has over a million employees. Talking to them one and a time and all wearing a red pin seems like a HUGE task. Also, only a tiny minority of employees are skilled. They're well paid and looked after. They have large stock options (I think the only pay over 100k at amazon is given in the form of stock). I highly doubt they'll strike for the rest. They've never met them. They don't have anything in common with them. They much closer to management. Don't get me wrong, they have every right to try. I just don't think anything even a tenth this size has been accomplished in the history of labour relations...
- freeone3000 6y ago
  They're only closer to management in the sense that they make more money and have better conditions. Their livelihood is just as precarious and just as dependent on their bosses for income, and they can be fired just as easily -- and they have their own grievances about scope and purpose of work.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    That's not actually true. If you're a skilled worker, you're livelihood (and security) comes from your skills. This is the core issue with unions for skilled people. If you work hard and move around, you can make great money and be secure without a union. So why unionise? That's why there is no union of doctors or investment bankers... Imagine you're a dev at amazon, and you get 100k basic and share options worth another 100k. If you throw in with the union, you risk your job. And if you win, they get 2usd an hour more. And your 100k of share options is worthless. How does that sound like a good deal?
    - freeone3000 6y ago
      Professional organizations take their place for regulated professions - so the AMA for doctors and the NIBA for Investment Bankers. But programming isn't a regulated profession. It doesn't have a professional organization. Your "cred" is reputational and based on work history, not on actual credentials or licensure. It's closer in this sense to a trade, like electrical work or plumbing, where members frequently are unionized. Why unionize? Because your facial recognition tech is being used to round up Uigurs, or bomb Yemeni weddings, or bake cakes for gay people. To have actual say over the products you work on, and how they're used.
      - LatteLazy 6y ago
        I don't see the relevance of some professions being regulated. A dev is skilled labour whether they're regulated or not. Being not easily replaceable puts them in the same category as the others I listed. Your points on Why unionise? have wondered a bit if you don't mind me saying. Again, I'm all for people having a moral stance. But if you do, why did you join the Amazon Facial Recognition and Military Tech department? And why would unionising actually stop that work being done, rather than just move it to MS or Apple or Halliburton? And even if you did, why bother including the pickers? They don't care about amazon tech and you wouldn't need them to close the tech centre down...
        nobodyandproud 6y ago
        > I don't see the relevance of some professions being regulated. A dev is skilled labour whether they're regulated or not. Being not easily replaceable puts them in the same category as the others I listed First you say, Doctors don’t have unions. Then you move the goalpost when it’s pointed out that many skilled professions do have something effectively similar. The reason for having one isn’t just about pay.
        LatteLazy 6y ago
        I'm trying hard here to give the benefit of the doubt. Help me understand: how is the AMA a union? Especially the sort of union people are suggesting for amazon. Specifically: * do they negotiate standard wages, hours and work conditions? * do they organise strikes and other action when they don't get what their members want? * do they also represent unskilled workers, say hospital cleaners (as was being suggested for the amazon Union)? Help me out here. Am I missing something? I'm no expert so I'm happy to be corrected...
- amzsdethrowaway 6y ago
  I'm an SDE II at Amazon. Posting because I hope other SDEs read this; there is strength in voices. I absolutely will join a strike if Amazon lays off unionizing unskilled workers en masse. The pay is good, but I think you're missing two things. (1) A large portion of Amazon SDEs leave after a year or two anyway. (The lack of vested RSUs in the first two years is typically compensated with an equivalent sign-on bonus, which pays out with each paycheck. So the vesting schedule doesn't particularly incentivize sticking around for no other reason.) (2) Many Amazon SDEs (like that of any FAANG) are millenials, who skew progressive: worker rights are an issue I think many feel strongly about, and many probably have friends who are part of the unskilled labor pool or gig economy. We know if it weren't for software, we'd very well be in the same boat.
  - LatteLazy 6y ago
    Thanks, it's good to hear from someone with first hand knowledge. I wasn't aware of the vesting structure and I think you're right that a shorter term planned tenure makes people less risk averse.

LatteLazy 6y ago

You know amazon has over a million employees. Talking to them one and a time and all wearing a red pin seems like a HUGE task. Also, only a tiny minority of employees are skilled. They're well paid and looked after. They have large stock options (I think the only pay over 100k at amazon is given in the form of stock). I highly doubt they'll strike for the rest. They've never met them. They don't have anything in common with them. They much closer to management. Don't get me wrong, they have every right to try. I just don't think anything even a tenth this size has been accomplished in the history of labour relations...

freeone3000 6y ago
They're only closer to management in the sense that they make more money and have better conditions. Their livelihood is just as precarious and just as dependent on their bosses for income, and they can be fired just as easily -- and they have their own grievances about scope and purpose of work.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  That's not actually true. If you're a skilled worker, you're livelihood (and security) comes from your skills. This is the core issue with unions for skilled people. If you work hard and move around, you can make great money and be secure without a union. So why unionise? That's why there is no union of doctors or investment bankers... Imagine you're a dev at amazon, and you get 100k basic and share options worth another 100k. If you throw in with the union, you risk your job. And if you win, they get 2usd an hour more. And your 100k of share options is worthless. How does that sound like a good deal?
  - freeone3000 6y ago
    Professional organizations take their place for regulated professions - so the AMA for doctors and the NIBA for Investment Bankers. But programming isn't a regulated profession. It doesn't have a professional organization. Your "cred" is reputational and based on work history, not on actual credentials or licensure. It's closer in this sense to a trade, like electrical work or plumbing, where members frequently are unionized. Why unionize? Because your facial recognition tech is being used to round up Uigurs, or bomb Yemeni weddings, or bake cakes for gay people. To have actual say over the products you work on, and how they're used.
    - LatteLazy 6y ago
      I don't see the relevance of some professions being regulated. A dev is skilled labour whether they're regulated or not. Being not easily replaceable puts them in the same category as the others I listed. Your points on Why unionise? have wondered a bit if you don't mind me saying. Again, I'm all for people having a moral stance. But if you do, why did you join the Amazon Facial Recognition and Military Tech department? And why would unionising actually stop that work being done, rather than just move it to MS or Apple or Halliburton? And even if you did, why bother including the pickers? They don't care about amazon tech and you wouldn't need them to close the tech centre down...
      - nobodyandproud 6y ago
        > I don't see the relevance of some professions being regulated. A dev is skilled labour whether they're regulated or not. Being not easily replaceable puts them in the same category as the others I listed First you say, Doctors don’t have unions. Then you move the goalpost when it’s pointed out that many skilled professions do have something effectively similar. The reason for having one isn’t just about pay.
        LatteLazy 6y ago
        I'm trying hard here to give the benefit of the doubt. Help me understand: how is the AMA a union? Especially the sort of union people are suggesting for amazon. Specifically: * do they negotiate standard wages, hours and work conditions? * do they organise strikes and other action when they don't get what their members want? * do they also represent unskilled workers, say hospital cleaners (as was being suggested for the amazon Union)? Help me out here. Am I missing something? I'm no expert so I'm happy to be corrected...
amzsdethrowaway 6y ago
I'm an SDE II at Amazon. Posting because I hope other SDEs read this; there is strength in voices. I absolutely will join a strike if Amazon lays off unionizing unskilled workers en masse. The pay is good, but I think you're missing two things. (1) A large portion of Amazon SDEs leave after a year or two anyway. (The lack of vested RSUs in the first two years is typically compensated with an equivalent sign-on bonus, which pays out with each paycheck. So the vesting schedule doesn't particularly incentivize sticking around for no other reason.) (2) Many Amazon SDEs (like that of any FAANG) are millenials, who skew progressive: worker rights are an issue I think many feel strongly about, and many probably have friends who are part of the unskilled labor pool or gig economy. We know if it weren't for software, we'd very well be in the same boat.
- LatteLazy 6y ago
  Thanks, it's good to hear from someone with first hand knowledge. I wasn't aware of the vesting structure and I think you're right that a shorter term planned tenure makes people less risk averse.