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FWIW, I refuse to buy stuff from the Mac App Store because it's just not compatible with my life. I don't have any i-devices. I have a handful of iCloud/iTunes

FWIW, I refuse to buy stuff from the Mac App Store because it's just not compatible with my life. I don't have any i-devices. I have a handful of iCloud/iTunes accounts of which I'm not sure which is technically the one I want to use (one of them is even a legacy pre-email one). I never connect my OSX box with my personal email and I will not in the future. I get it, but I just won't buy software from that store, hands down. Maybe I'm just in the dwindling minority of Mac users.

s3cur3 6y ago
Out of curiosity, do you buy software from small devs at all? It seems like, whatever the privacy/security implications may be when buying via Apple, they're worse when dealing with a totally unknown party.
- mmastrac 6y ago
  Yep. Bartender, DaisyDisk, NoCrash for my MBP, and a few others.
  - s3cur3 6y ago
    Huh. Cool! As I said elsewhere in the thread, my personal intuition is that Apple is a significantly better steward of my information (and credit card!) than a random small-time dev on the internet, but I realize not everyone agrees.
    - mmastrac 6y ago
      The security of my credit card is really up to Visa or Mastercard to deal with. I'm more likely to have it stolen by a random fast-food worker than entering it into a PCI-compliant website (out of all the times it's been compromised, they've nearly always been because it was handed over to someone to scan in the USA).
    - xoa 6y ago
      FWIW, most small time devs aren't going to be "stewards of information" to any significant degree unless they're actively trying. Handling finance will be outsourced either way, using Stripe or one of many other 3rd party services, you wouldn't be processing any of that yourself. I buy a ton of 3rd party indy software on my Mac and always have, and nothing from the MAS, and typically the only "personal info", kind of, is an email and maybe my name (and it's not as if that's verified somehow, I could just put in whatever). I also have plenty of email accounts and can trivially make more, as well as developer-specific aliases. Plus there are other tools to further layer if it was ever a problem, like virtual credit card numbers. In practice the very nature of credit cards means it doesn't seem to generally be a problem, has been less of a real world risk than hacks of physical retailers. If I see a bad charge, I just report it and get a new number. Also FWIW, I've seen plenty of sites starting to offer Apple Pay as an option at checkout, I assume it's getting built into more payment systems now. That itself is solid defense, at least as good as the MAS though sometimes the checkout flows seem a bit wonky still.
  - xvf22 6y ago
    Yup, I spend a ton with small developers and actively avoid software that forces me into the app store.
- jonpurdy 6y ago
  I, too, vastly prefer purchasing outside of the App Store to the point where I’ll often not bother if I don’t absolutely need the app. Too many times I’ve tried to run App Store apps and been bothered with my Apple ID. I prefer the decentralization and not relying so much on Apple’s cloud services. Trivial to pull up old license info from 1Password or email if necessary.
- Mindwipe 6y ago
  I buy plenty of software from small devs, but I avoid the Mac app store like the plague. It's not a good user experience, and Apple's actions elsewhere with app stores are so utterly beyond the pale I cannot support that financially.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  Yes. TripMode, which I use like an application firewall. (Side note: to further deny us users our right of choice, ownership and control over our device, Apple has already crippled ALL application firewalls on its newest macOS to allow all Apple authorised software to BYPASS any such application firewalls, even if the user has explicitly blocked such software).
sneak 6y ago
Fun fact: the modern NetworkExtension signed Apple entitlements that are required to be a VPN app on the macOS are app-store-only. (There is one root-based workaround to make VPNs work on macOS without these entitlements, for now, which will likely be removed in the near future.) This is why you can download a wireguard installer from wireguard.org for Windows, but have to provide your identity (name, phone, email, address) and device hardware serial number to Apple to get the Wireguard app on that platform. Show ID for privacy software.
- mmastrac 6y ago
  Yeah, and this is why I've been tempted to bootstrap a de-Apple-ified OSX project. I'm getting sick of Apple's intrusiveness. I was staring at a red dot on the System Preferences because Apple decided that logging in with iCloud was important enough to remind me of daily.
  - sneak 6y ago
    Due to the signed system volume, doing so is now impossible without disabling system integrity protection, one of the main platform security features of macOS. I made an effort to do this for Mojave, but macOS is not designed to be modular, and after a week of chasing weird bugs related to interdependencies of system services, I stopped my efforts. If you'd like to collaborate, reach out.
    - mmastrac 6y ago
      It would be a "respin"-style project without Apple's keys at the root.
      - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
        I didn't realize you could actually leave SIP on but use a different chain of trust! Would you be recompiling XNU to do this?
        6y ago
wlesieutre 6y ago
I use it for free stuff when I have the option because it's convenient to have the centralized install buttons and software updates, and I've bought some software for actual money (Affinity suite for example). But given the option I'm perfectly happy to buy from devs. They don't have to give Apple a cut, there's no "drag the whole hard drive on to the window" sandbox workarounds, and they can structure their upgrade pricing however they want instead of not being allowed to do it.
- mmastrac 6y ago
  To be honest, I don't use it for free stuff either. Why do I need to provide an account to download something that's free? If you're offering a free app, there's really no reason why you shouldn't have it on your website as well. IIRC there used to be a way to get things like Garageband and Numbers from the store without providing credentials, but sadly that appears to no longer be the case.
  - wlesieutre 6y ago
    I'm already in my account so I've never even considered that as an issue for getting free apps from the app store. You're right though, no other way to download Numbers, etc.
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  Semi-related note for apps outside the store: please copy paint.net's update prompt, which gives me the option to install the update when I close the app, instead of either right now (while I'm trying to use the app) or asking me again next time I launch it (when I'll also be trying use the app). It's been 15+ years and this still hasn't caught on. Not interrupting whatever I'm trying to get done with software updates and relaunches is one of the major reasons I'd rather just get things from the Mac App Store.
wlesieutre 6y ago
What's a legacy pre-email one? Does that date back to before iTools or something? I'm pretty sure I'm on my original Apple account from back when it was iTools and then .mac and finally iCloud. If one of those transitions didn't carry over, then maybe it's from 2004ish when I needed an account to redeem Pepsi caps for iTunes downloads. But I've heard the "I accidentally have purchases on 8 different Apple accounts" story from enough people that the account/license management is clearly a problem that needs dealing with.
- mmastrac 6y ago
  I can (or at least could - haven't tested for a while) sign in with my "apple username" that doesn't contain an @ sign at all.
  - wlesieutre 6y ago
    Ah, perhaps mine was that way at once point and switched over when I changed email addresses.
  - thewebcount 6y ago
    If you care about it, you should try again, as they recently sent me an email about purging such usernames. I don't recall what the deadline was, but it's coming up.
xoa 6y ago
>Maybe I'm just in the dwindling minority of Mac users. I mean, I'm sure you are, but you're not alone. Same boat here. In principle Mac App Store could have been a really wonderful thing, I think Apple in the 00s had a real opportunity to do a great service to their users by creating a unified, solid and flexible licensing system for all devs (and then offering a fully optional vetted software store beyond that). Unfortunately they didn't do that and the MAS sucks. There is no upgrade system which is just absolutely fucking insanity. There are huge restrictions on useful functionality, so it can never be a one-stop place. The licensing and Apple ID management is a total fucking mess too, can't consolidate or transfer licenses like just about every previous Mac system in existence, all sorts of normal concepts like vol or other discounts are a pain/non-existent. I have an old iTools account, and I'm not even allowed to change the primary email address! The MAS experience, and Apple's online service experience in general over significant time, is just miserable, completely unnecessarily too. Maybe they'll fix that someday, but it doesn't seem to be a priority so here we are :(.
Razengan 6y ago
FWIW, I love buying stuff from the Mac App Store and I wish all my favorite Mac apps were available there. I love the automatic updates, I feel safer with the sandboxing, and I appreciate the convenience of visiting a single point to download almost everything I want to put on a new Mac. I also cherish having control over subscription renewals from one list and the Apple's easy refund process in the event of a third-party app not turning out to be worth the money (or an outright scam). And as a dev I like knowing that anything I publish will be available to all Mac users. I do hate the crappy App Store.app UI though. Feels like navigating a clunk web page, and why the fluff did they remove the download progress stats?? You have to hit F4 to see the actual size/downloaded numbers in the Launchpad (or in the Applications folder I guess).
valuearb 6y ago
Dwindling minority? Mac sales have grown to nearly 20% of industry revenues. With the M1 it looks likely they will get close to 10% of industry units, and blow by 20% of revenues. Most independent software developers should not care about units sold, because it comprises far too many $200-$400 PCs that don’t buy much software. They should care about the $1,000+ PC market, those are your best customers, and where Apples market share by units is at least 25%, and surging higher with the M1.
- mmastrac 6y ago
  Dwindling minority of Mac users that want a low Apple experience
thewebcount 6y ago
Yeah, that's definitely not the norm that I see among macOS users. I do the same thing but with Steam. If I can find it anywhere else, even for more money, I'll buy it elsewhere, including the Mac App Store because the experience of using Steam is so awful. So to each their own, I guess.
webmobdev 6y ago
> Maybe I'm just in the dwindling minority of Mac users. No, you are not. And even if we are a minority, we should definitely abandon the macOS platform if our right to choice, ownership and control is deliberately denied to us on it just the sake of apple's profit margins.

s3cur3 6y ago

Out of curiosity, do you buy software from small devs at all? It seems like, whatever the privacy/security implications may be when buying via Apple, they're worse when dealing with a totally unknown party.

mmastrac 6y ago
Yep. Bartender, DaisyDisk, NoCrash for my MBP, and a few others.
- s3cur3 6y ago
  Huh. Cool! As I said elsewhere in the thread, my personal intuition is that Apple is a significantly better steward of my information (and credit card!) than a random small-time dev on the internet, but I realize not everyone agrees.
  - mmastrac 6y ago
    The security of my credit card is really up to Visa or Mastercard to deal with. I'm more likely to have it stolen by a random fast-food worker than entering it into a PCI-compliant website (out of all the times it's been compromised, they've nearly always been because it was handed over to someone to scan in the USA).
  - xoa 6y ago
    FWIW, most small time devs aren't going to be "stewards of information" to any significant degree unless they're actively trying. Handling finance will be outsourced either way, using Stripe or one of many other 3rd party services, you wouldn't be processing any of that yourself. I buy a ton of 3rd party indy software on my Mac and always have, and nothing from the MAS, and typically the only "personal info", kind of, is an email and maybe my name (and it's not as if that's verified somehow, I could just put in whatever). I also have plenty of email accounts and can trivially make more, as well as developer-specific aliases. Plus there are other tools to further layer if it was ever a problem, like virtual credit card numbers. In practice the very nature of credit cards means it doesn't seem to generally be a problem, has been less of a real world risk than hacks of physical retailers. If I see a bad charge, I just report it and get a new number. Also FWIW, I've seen plenty of sites starting to offer Apple Pay as an option at checkout, I assume it's getting built into more payment systems now. That itself is solid defense, at least as good as the MAS though sometimes the checkout flows seem a bit wonky still.
- xvf22 6y ago
  Yup, I spend a ton with small developers and actively avoid software that forces me into the app store.
jonpurdy 6y ago
I, too, vastly prefer purchasing outside of the App Store to the point where I’ll often not bother if I don’t absolutely need the app. Too many times I’ve tried to run App Store apps and been bothered with my Apple ID. I prefer the decentralization and not relying so much on Apple’s cloud services. Trivial to pull up old license info from 1Password or email if necessary.
Mindwipe 6y ago
I buy plenty of software from small devs, but I avoid the Mac app store like the plague. It's not a good user experience, and Apple's actions elsewhere with app stores are so utterly beyond the pale I cannot support that financially.
webmobdev 6y ago
Yes. TripMode, which I use like an application firewall. (Side note: to further deny us users our right of choice, ownership and control over our device, Apple has already crippled ALL application firewalls on its newest macOS to allow all Apple authorised software to BYPASS any such application firewalls, even if the user has explicitly blocked such software).

sneak 6y ago

Fun fact: the modern NetworkExtension signed Apple entitlements that are required to be a VPN app on the macOS are app-store-only. (There is one root-based workaround to make VPNs work on macOS without these entitlements, for now, which will likely be removed in the near future.) This is why you can download a wireguard installer from wireguard.org for Windows, but have to provide your identity (name, phone, email, address) and device hardware serial number to Apple to get the Wireguard app on that platform. Show ID for privacy software.

mmastrac 6y ago
Yeah, and this is why I've been tempted to bootstrap a de-Apple-ified OSX project. I'm getting sick of Apple's intrusiveness. I was staring at a red dot on the System Preferences because Apple decided that logging in with iCloud was important enough to remind me of daily.
- sneak 6y ago
  Due to the signed system volume, doing so is now impossible without disabling system integrity protection, one of the main platform security features of macOS. I made an effort to do this for Mojave, but macOS is not designed to be modular, and after a week of chasing weird bugs related to interdependencies of system services, I stopped my efforts. If you'd like to collaborate, reach out.
  - mmastrac 6y ago
    It would be a "respin"-style project without Apple's keys at the root.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      I didn't realize you could actually leave SIP on but use a different chain of trust! Would you be recompiling XNU to do this?
      - 6y ago

wlesieutre 6y ago

I use it for free stuff when I have the option because it's convenient to have the centralized install buttons and software updates, and I've bought some software for actual money (Affinity suite for example). But given the option I'm perfectly happy to buy from devs. They don't have to give Apple a cut, there's no "drag the whole hard drive on to the window" sandbox workarounds, and they can structure their upgrade pricing however they want instead of not being allowed to do it.

mmastrac 6y ago
To be honest, I don't use it for free stuff either. Why do I need to provide an account to download something that's free? If you're offering a free app, there's really no reason why you shouldn't have it on your website as well. IIRC there used to be a way to get things like Garageband and Numbers from the store without providing credentials, but sadly that appears to no longer be the case.
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  I'm already in my account so I've never even considered that as an issue for getting free apps from the app store. You're right though, no other way to download Numbers, etc.
wlesieutre 6y ago
Semi-related note for apps outside the store: please copy paint.net's update prompt, which gives me the option to install the update when I close the app, instead of either right now (while I'm trying to use the app) or asking me again next time I launch it (when I'll also be trying use the app). It's been 15+ years and this still hasn't caught on. Not interrupting whatever I'm trying to get done with software updates and relaunches is one of the major reasons I'd rather just get things from the Mac App Store.

wlesieutre 6y ago

What's a legacy pre-email one? Does that date back to before iTools or something? I'm pretty sure I'm on my original Apple account from back when it was iTools and then .mac and finally iCloud. If one of those transitions didn't carry over, then maybe it's from 2004ish when I needed an account to redeem Pepsi caps for iTunes downloads. But I've heard the "I accidentally have purchases on 8 different Apple accounts" story from enough people that the account/license management is clearly a problem that needs dealing with.

mmastrac 6y ago
I can (or at least could - haven't tested for a while) sign in with my "apple username" that doesn't contain an @ sign at all.
- wlesieutre 6y ago
  Ah, perhaps mine was that way at once point and switched over when I changed email addresses.
- thewebcount 6y ago
  If you care about it, you should try again, as they recently sent me an email about purging such usernames. I don't recall what the deadline was, but it's coming up.

xoa 6y ago

>Maybe I'm just in the dwindling minority of Mac users. I mean, I'm sure you are, but you're not alone. Same boat here. In principle Mac App Store could have been a really wonderful thing, I think Apple in the 00s had a real opportunity to do a great service to their users by creating a unified, solid and flexible licensing system for all devs (and then offering a fully optional vetted software store beyond that). Unfortunately they didn't do that and the MAS sucks. There is no upgrade system which is just absolutely fucking insanity. There are huge restrictions on useful functionality, so it can never be a one-stop place. The licensing and Apple ID management is a total fucking mess too, can't consolidate or transfer licenses like just about every previous Mac system in existence, all sorts of normal concepts like vol or other discounts are a pain/non-existent. I have an old iTools account, and I'm not even allowed to change the primary email address! The MAS experience, and Apple's online service experience in general over significant time, is just miserable, completely unnecessarily too. Maybe they'll fix that someday, but it doesn't seem to be a priority so here we are :(.

Razengan 6y ago

FWIW, I love buying stuff from the Mac App Store and I wish all my favorite Mac apps were available there. I love the automatic updates, I feel safer with the sandboxing, and I appreciate the convenience of visiting a single point to download almost everything I want to put on a new Mac. I also cherish having control over subscription renewals from one list and the Apple's easy refund process in the event of a third-party app not turning out to be worth the money (or an outright scam). And as a dev I like knowing that anything I publish will be available to all Mac users. I do hate the crappy App Store.app UI though. Feels like navigating a clunk web page, and why the fluff did they remove the download progress stats?? You have to hit F4 to see the actual size/downloaded numbers in the Launchpad (or in the Applications folder I guess).

valuearb 6y ago

Dwindling minority? Mac sales have grown to nearly 20% of industry revenues. With the M1 it looks likely they will get close to 10% of industry units, and blow by 20% of revenues. Most independent software developers should not care about units sold, because it comprises far too many $200-$400 PCs that don’t buy much software. They should care about the $1,000+ PC market, those are your best customers, and where Apples market share by units is at least 25%, and surging higher with the M1.

mmastrac 6y ago
Dwindling minority of Mac users that want a low Apple experience

thewebcount 6y ago

Yeah, that's definitely not the norm that I see among macOS users. I do the same thing but with Steam. If I can find it anywhere else, even for more money, I'll buy it elsewhere, including the Mac App Store because the experience of using Steam is so awful. So to each their own, I guess.

webmobdev 6y ago

> Maybe I'm just in the dwindling minority of Mac users. No, you are not. And even if we are a minority, we should definitely abandon the macOS platform if our right to choice, ownership and control is deliberately denied to us on it just the sake of apple's profit margins.