3 ms·

I like Matrix, but when it comes to ease of use and onboarding Signal is easier for the general audience.

rglullis 6y ago
Is this a counter-argument, or plain pontification? OP clearly states that there is a fundamental issue with any centralized solution (i.e, the moment that it becomes too big, it will succumb to the interests of its owners) and you respond by saying "well, Signal is easier for the general audience"? It might be easier, so what? Apple's products are supposedly more privacy-oriented than the Facebook's/Google's. So what? The idea is that we should be rooting/encouraging others to put decentralization and freedom as a top-priority choice, not to keep excusing ourselves into adopting solutions that are bound to become another dominant walled garden. If you want to argue for Matrix vs XMPP, or XMPP vs SIP or any other decentralized protocol, by all means go ahead. Just please don't come with "I like Matrix, but here is a completely lazy cop-out that I will use to justify to not fight the good fight"
- bilal4hmed 6y ago
  Its not a lazy cop out. There is a reason why Telegram, WhatsApp, iMessage have more users - they are simple to use for an audience that is not tech savvy. Matrix has a long way to go before getting people to join is "easy". Theyve done great work over this year to get that done, but its far from perfect. Fight the good fight but dont forget what makes an app attract users. Even now on matrix, when you sign up, matrix.org is the default server. If majority go about signing up without changing that, you end up with a centralized service.
  - rglullis 6y ago
    I've got a good part of my family who is not tech savvy on matrix (not their server, but actual accounts on communick.com homeserver), nothing that a 10 minute walk-through didn't solve. It on us the tech savvy to identify these issues, educate and help them overcome them, and ideally contribute for these issues to be solved in the first place. This gives us progress and freedom. Saying "matrix is hard/incomplete, let's just stick in the golden cage" gives us convenience, but no progress.
    - asutekku 6y ago
      10 min walkthrough/registration process versus a <1 min registration. Think whatever of it but people appreciate convenience over everything.
      - rglullis 6y ago
        "Look, mom/dad/wife/brother/friends, I know that WhatsApp is easier and everyone else is using it and it you already know it and it is super convenient. But I don't want to use it anymore for a bunch of different reasons. If you want to talk to me, I can help you get set up on this app and we can talk. I know it sounds like a pain in the ass, but I am willing to help you with whatever issue you have. Just please don't ask me to sacrifice my freedom for your convenience." 100% conversion rate. Stop with excuses and Just. Ask. Them. In fact even if I have no paying customers at all for communick I wouldn't still shut it down just so my friends and family can continue using it.
        dividedbyzero 6y ago
        100% conversion rate with those you can apply sufficient pressure on, perhaps. Who'd want to lose contact with a son, brother, father over something like that? But it's a hassle, even if you don't see it that way. Over the years I myself have been converted to Signal, Telegram (encrypted chats), Threema, some kind of encrypted IRC and OTR on at least two other messengers, Google Wave, Google Talk, Viber, ... can't remember them all. I have no idea anymore what person prefers which app and since most of those people weren't the very best of friends, contact to almost all of them has effectively ceased (in part because those specific people don't often start conversations themselves), which is a pity, but it's simply really bothersome to cater to everyone's preferences, and I absolutely can't and won't switch to $other_app fully myself, because I really value being able to talk to all my acquaintances and friends and relatives and being able to stay in touch with new ones easily and frictionlessly, and pretty much everyone is on Whatsapp, and all I need is a phone number. If some people categorically don't value other people who don't use their preferred app, that totally weirds me out. Their choice, but not one I'm willing to make, especially since that notion of freedom I gain feels like a very, very abstract kind of freedom in a world where billions use Whatsapp for next to anything and all sorts of devices, apps and websites from all sorts of brands and sources phone home lots and lots of data, which also means eschewing Whatsapp doesn't matter a thing unless I make dozens of other painfull choices like opting out of all mainstream social media, complex privacy-centric browser setups that need constant attention to not fall behind, no mainstream phone (possibly no smartphone at all), no smart devices at all, Linux exclusively, etc. pp., otherwise I'll just leak data like a sieve elsewhere. Given that I gain what feels like very little, life just feels too short for this.
- wruza 6y ago
  >It might be easier, so what? If it is not easier/equal they won’t give it a go. Just that. >The idea is that we should be rooting/encouraging others to put decentralization and freedom as a top-priority choice, not to keep excusing ourselves into adopting solutions that are bound to become another dominant walled garden. Words of a freedom and privacy specialist. General folks are not specializing in it, more than a half (if only) cannot even connect it with their benefit. You say that like some economist could say “use less gas to keep prices down and nature alive”. But it doesn’t work, because “screw that nonsense, I have to drive my kids and groceries home”. If you’re in a quarantined country right now, just look around and see how many efforts the inconvenience requires to be sustained. This is the amount of force you have to apply, when doing it your “so what” way. Make IM app easy, friendly and full of features and cat pics and only then care for high matters. Literally all Real Security First apps are barely usable by a regular person in terms of everything.
hertzrat 6y ago
Is matrix as private as signal? How do you go about finding a good server? How do you know if you picked a good one? Which app do you use? Matrix would be more popular if the getting started flow was more clear on these sorts of questions. The decentralization is a major benefit, but some sort of “pick these if you don’t know what’s going on” flow would get peoples foot in the door; then a user could change things up later when they got their footing (add a pop up every 6 months reminding users that they can use different apps or servers, etc)
anoncake 6y ago
If ease of use and onboarding is the criterium, WhatsApp wins. Promoting any walled garden is short-sighted.

Is this a counter-argument, or plain pontification? OP clearly states that there is a fundamental issue with any centralized solution (i.e, the moment that it becomes too big, it will succumb to the interests of its owners) and you respond by saying "well, Signal is easier for the general audience"? It might be easier, so what? Apple's products are supposedly more privacy-oriented than the Facebook's/Google's. So what? The idea is that we should be rooting/encouraging others to put decentralization and freedom as a top-priority choice, not to keep excusing ourselves into adopting solutions that are bound to become another dominant walled garden. If you want to argue for Matrix vs XMPP, or XMPP vs SIP or any other decentralized protocol, by all means go ahead. Just please don't come with "I like Matrix, but here is a completely lazy cop-out that I will use to justify to not fight the good fight"

bilal4hmed 6y ago
Its not a lazy cop out. There is a reason why Telegram, WhatsApp, iMessage have more users - they are simple to use for an audience that is not tech savvy. Matrix has a long way to go before getting people to join is "easy". Theyve done great work over this year to get that done, but its far from perfect. Fight the good fight but dont forget what makes an app attract users. Even now on matrix, when you sign up, matrix.org is the default server. If majority go about signing up without changing that, you end up with a centralized service.
- rglullis 6y ago
  I've got a good part of my family who is not tech savvy on matrix (not their server, but actual accounts on communick.com homeserver), nothing that a 10 minute walk-through didn't solve. It on us the tech savvy to identify these issues, educate and help them overcome them, and ideally contribute for these issues to be solved in the first place. This gives us progress and freedom. Saying "matrix is hard/incomplete, let's just stick in the golden cage" gives us convenience, but no progress.
  - asutekku 6y ago
    10 min walkthrough/registration process versus a <1 min registration. Think whatever of it but people appreciate convenience over everything.
    - rglullis 6y ago
      "Look, mom/dad/wife/brother/friends, I know that WhatsApp is easier and everyone else is using it and it you already know it and it is super convenient. But I don't want to use it anymore for a bunch of different reasons. If you want to talk to me, I can help you get set up on this app and we can talk. I know it sounds like a pain in the ass, but I am willing to help you with whatever issue you have. Just please don't ask me to sacrifice my freedom for your convenience." 100% conversion rate. Stop with excuses and Just. Ask. Them. In fact even if I have no paying customers at all for communick I wouldn't still shut it down just so my friends and family can continue using it.
      - dividedbyzero 6y ago
        100% conversion rate with those you can apply sufficient pressure on, perhaps. Who'd want to lose contact with a son, brother, father over something like that? But it's a hassle, even if you don't see it that way. Over the years I myself have been converted to Signal, Telegram (encrypted chats), Threema, some kind of encrypted IRC and OTR on at least two other messengers, Google Wave, Google Talk, Viber, ... can't remember them all. I have no idea anymore what person prefers which app and since most of those people weren't the very best of friends, contact to almost all of them has effectively ceased (in part because those specific people don't often start conversations themselves), which is a pity, but it's simply really bothersome to cater to everyone's preferences, and I absolutely can't and won't switch to $other_app fully myself, because I really value being able to talk to all my acquaintances and friends and relatives and being able to stay in touch with new ones easily and frictionlessly, and pretty much everyone is on Whatsapp, and all I need is a phone number. If some people categorically don't value other people who don't use their preferred app, that totally weirds me out. Their choice, but not one I'm willing to make, especially since that notion of freedom I gain feels like a very, very abstract kind of freedom in a world where billions use Whatsapp for next to anything and all sorts of devices, apps and websites from all sorts of brands and sources phone home lots and lots of data, which also means eschewing Whatsapp doesn't matter a thing unless I make dozens of other painfull choices like opting out of all mainstream social media, complex privacy-centric browser setups that need constant attention to not fall behind, no mainstream phone (possibly no smartphone at all), no smart devices at all, Linux exclusively, etc. pp., otherwise I'll just leak data like a sieve elsewhere. Given that I gain what feels like very little, life just feels too short for this.
wruza 6y ago
>It might be easier, so what? If it is not easier/equal they won’t give it a go. Just that. >The idea is that we should be rooting/encouraging others to put decentralization and freedom as a top-priority choice, not to keep excusing ourselves into adopting solutions that are bound to become another dominant walled garden. Words of a freedom and privacy specialist. General folks are not specializing in it, more than a half (if only) cannot even connect it with their benefit. You say that like some economist could say “use less gas to keep prices down and nature alive”. But it doesn’t work, because “screw that nonsense, I have to drive my kids and groceries home”. If you’re in a quarantined country right now, just look around and see how many efforts the inconvenience requires to be sustained. This is the amount of force you have to apply, when doing it your “so what” way. Make IM app easy, friendly and full of features and cat pics and only then care for high matters. Literally all Real Security First apps are barely usable by a regular person in terms of everything.

hertzrat 6y ago

Is matrix as private as signal? How do you go about finding a good server? How do you know if you picked a good one? Which app do you use? Matrix would be more popular if the getting started flow was more clear on these sorts of questions. The decentralization is a major benefit, but some sort of “pick these if you don’t know what’s going on” flow would get peoples foot in the door; then a user could change things up later when they got their footing (add a pop up every 6 months reminding users that they can use different apps or servers, etc)

anoncake 6y ago

If ease of use and onboarding is the criterium, WhatsApp wins. Promoting any walled garden is short-sighted.