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“Keeping those skills sharp even when you’re not job hunting.” It’s so tiring to continue to see this. If the “skills” you need to keep sharp are not the same
by mlthoughts2018 6y ago
“Keeping those skills sharp even when you’re not job hunting.”
It’s so tiring to continue to see this.
If the “skills” you need to keep sharp are not the same thing as the skills you exercise through your job, that’s a giant red flag that the hiring company should be avoided.
If you’re practicing leetcode or Kaggle in your spare time to pass interviews, you need to stop and realize you’ve set up your goals completely backward and you are actively helping companies to commoditize your labor product and short change you on poor job quality or experience building.
If you don’t reject companies when they try the algorithm hazing crap that has no bearing on the real day to day job of software engineering, you are setting yourself up to fail and burn out, with crappy resume experience and nothing but perpetual leetcode skill to show for it.
- deeeeplearning 6y agoYou're being downvoted because much of the Software Engineering community suffers from a form of Stockholm Syndrome.
- maire 6y agoMost engineers are introverts and relatively humble - so interviewing is difficult. We have to remind ourselves that we are pretty good. I always went on 2 practice interviews before the real interview and it worked.
- chollida1 6y ago> Most engineers are introverts is this a defensible statement? I haven't seen any research that would lead me to believe that most engineers are introverts.
- doggosphere 6y agoDefensibly anecdotally. Perhaps you have seen a classroom full of engineering students?
- chollida1 6y agoI am an engineer, have an engineering degree. Fully disagree with your assertion. I'll fall back on my anecdotal evidence of the monthly keg parties that the engineering department threw to counter your example. Again the statement that most engineers are introverted is in no way defensible and its insulting to try and group us all together like that.
- deeeeplearning 6y ago>Again the statement that most engineers are introverted is in no way defensible and its insulting to try and group us all together like that. Of course its defensible. From the abstract: "Engineers scored higher on Tough-Mindedness and Intrinsic Motivation; but lower on Assertiveness, Conscientiousness, Customer Service Orientation, Emotional Stability, Extraversion, Image Management, Optimism, Visionary Style, and Work Drive." https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0923474813000143 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S09234...
- maire 6y agoMy apologies. Congratulations on being a successful extrovert engineer. I am also a unicorn - but a different kind. I used to always have to defend being a statical outlier so I know where you are coming from.
- nobodyandproud 6y agoThe advice of going on interviews semi-regularly is one that I tell everyone soliciting advice (even my direct reports, though only once and only if conversation veers that way!). I don’t mean the leetcode hoops (etc, though that is part of the game) but once you’re in the door. It’s a unique skillset that degrades fast, not unlike dating skills.
- deeeeplearning 6y agoImagine if a Brain Surgeon was quizzed on Liver anatomy every time they wanted to interviewed for a job. It makes no sense and is borderline irrelevant to their actual job of you know doing brain surgery.
- vidarh 6y agoI would however imagine them to need to be able to show good skills at communicating the things they actually do, and being good at communicating that is in itself a skill that they will not necessarily use on a daily basis.
- deeeeplearning 6y ago>I would however imagine them to need to be able to show good skills at communicating Yes, that's called an interview. No one is saying there is no need to interview... So you seem to agree that leetcode style questions are irrelevant and pointless?
- vidarh 6y agoYes, I do, but the comment you replied to above also made the point that those kinds of questions are not the primary reason why you need to practice interview skills, so it's an odd thing to focus on.
- gizmo686 6y agoDoctors routinely need to update their certification by taking a formal exam; which includes subjects that they never except when studying for said exam. You don't need technical screenings when just getting through the front door involves passing a rigorous certification process.
- chrisseaton 6y ago> If the “skills” you need to keep sharp are not the same thing as the skills you exercise through your job, that’s a giant red flag that the hiring company should be avoided. Lots of people want a job slightly different to or at a higher level than what they currently do, so they don't get to exercise the skills they will need at work and practice them at home instead. I don't get why people here are so hostile to people investing their time to try to better themselves and achieve their goals.
- deeeeplearning 6y agoGetting better at leetcode is hardly "bettering oneself", what a bizarre point of view.
- chrisseaton 6y agoIf Leetcode is all you can think of to do to learn and practice skills then you've got a poor imagination. One side project I did in my spare time outside of work got me onto my PhD and has literally saved people's lives. People here probably think that's a waste of time and I should have just lazed about instead.
- BalinKing 6y ago> If Leetcode is all you can think of to do to learn and practice skills then you've got a poor imagination. I think the point is that real-world experience often doesn't translate into Leetcode skills, meaning that you have no choice but to devote time to the otherwise-useless[0] skill of solving Leetcode problems. If making a cool side project, etc. was what helped most software developers get better at interviews, "people here" wouldn't be complaining in the first place. Sure, you are learning something by solving Leetcode problems, but not anything useful[1] except in the artificial world of software interviews. [0] This is probably heavily dependent on the specific jobs in question—I'm only speaking from my personal experience. [1] Same as [0].
- gibolt 6y agoIf that can help you move up your annual salary significantly and make you better at handling arbitrary challenges, then it is exactly "Bettering oneself". Before practicing you were worse, and afterwards have improved. To be clear, it is only one skill in your toolbox
- vidarh 6y agoIt's not just about "algorithm hazing" but about presentation and communication skills that are often not a big part of the job of especially lower level developers, or at least not assessed in the same way. Keeping your communication and presentation skills sharp will not just benefit you in finding a new job, but also in advancing where you are, but you're rarely fired if you fail to improve at it.
- deeeeplearning 6y ago>presentation and communication skills These can be assessed completely without whiteboard quizzes.
- vidarh 6y agoThey are assessed in every part of an interview because every part of being interviewed showcases your presentation and communication skills. Hence the advice in the article to actually practising interviewing, and why the article does not focus on whiteboard quizzes.
- majormajor 6y agoIf I was going to judge dev interviewees solely on presentation and communication I'd have hired FEWER people than I have using algorithm questions as well. If you're junior, and you can't tell me anything interesting about the work you've done in the past, but can at least write some code quickly to solve some sample problems, you've at least shone something. If you're pretty experienced, though... not having much you can talk in depth about is a bigger flag.
- layoric 6y agoI think you meant “shown” (past tense of show),eg shone: A bright light was shone on the target shown: The curtain was pulled back and the object was shown for all the visitors to see Hope that helps.
- programmerslave 6y agoThis is bad advice, all the companies that pay well ask algorithms problems. Either play ball or be stuck at low wages
- mlthoughts2018 6y agoThe best paying tech jobs I’ve had did not ask leetcode style hazing questions. I earn more and feel more valued at a mid size e-commerce company than I ever did previously working for FAANG or quant finance forms. I think the high wage allure of those companies only applies to very junior engineers. Once you have 4 years of experience, if you’re good, lots of places will pay FAANG levels of total comp, and most won’t put you through leetcode hazing or stick you at the back of a thousand-engineer wait line for interesting projects.
- sgerenser 6y agoAre you in the US? There’s not many companies outside of FAANG (and the FAANG-alike like Uber and Snapchat) that pay software devs with 5-10 years of experience over $300k/year. Perhaps financial companies in NYC?
- mlthoughts2018 6y agoI am in the US. Most midrange ecommerce companies will meet that total comp. I’ve had total comp north of that working for not-name-brand stock photography companies, education tech companies, payment processors and online shop / storefront companies.