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Doctors and lawyers are not making $50k a year. $50k is not even the average annual income in this country; it is not the income of the barely-wealthy. This is

by bsanr 6y ago

Doctors and lawyers are not making $50k a year. $50k is not even the average annual income in this country; it is not the income of the barely-wealthy. This is the problem: people making multiples of $50k live fundamentally different lives from those making sub-$50k. They have money to burn, and they do just that, often on self-serving goods and services with limited ROI compared to what the same amount of money would buy people with more basic concerns. However, they want to align themselves with struggling families and individuals culturally, because it absolves them of responsibility for changing private and public policy towards the nature of labor and welfare, and provides cover for them to continue their mindless march into the Moloch of a false meritocracy. If you're paying $30k-$50k a year to send your kid to a private school, we're not talking about the same kind of family as a people working one or two jobs sub-$20/hr just to make rent. No one listens to the latter; if you're the former, you have positioned yourself socially to be heard by the decision-makers and policy-executors. If you don't say anything except in your own defense, knowing what an educated person should know about poverty and suffering in America, even somehow envisioning yourself as among those suffering, that's a choice.

dragonwriter 6y ago
> Doctors and lawyers are not making $50k a year For the most part, no. > $50k is not even the average annual income in this country That depends which average you are referring to. It's well above the median personal income (around $35K)—the median being usually the useful average for income statistics, but a little bit less than the mean personal income. (The most common “average income” number, though, is neither of those, but the median household income, which is close it $70K, but it doesn't really make sense to talk about an individual's income being average or not and looking at a household, instead of individual, metric to judge that.)
- bsanr 6y ago
  Generally, when one says average, they mean average. I used it deliberately because of the implicit comparison to be made between it and the median, and because of where it compares to the arbitrary $50k figure grandparent chose to swing the conversation around.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Generally, when one says average, they mean average. “Average” is an ambiguous term. The mode, median, and the various (harmonic, geometric, arithmetic) means are all averages. In income statistics specifically, the usual average referenced is the median of the appropriate measure. In context-neutral informal conversation, the arithmetic mean is the most common average. If you want to be clear, its a good idea to avoid “average” and use the specific term for a measure.
    - bsanr 6y ago
      I've heard of the median and mode being associated closely with the "average," but never as a synonym. Actually, I think it's much safer to assume that someone speaking of the average is referring to the mean unless they specifically say "median."
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > I've heard of the median and mode being associated closely with the "average," but never as a synonym. They aren't synonyms, they are more specific terms. In colloquial language, an average is a single number taken as representative of a list of numbers. Different concepts of average are used in different contexts. Often "average" refers to the arithmetic mean, the sum of the numbers divided by how many numbers are being averaged. In statistics, mean, median, and mode are all known as measures of central tendency, and in colloquial usage any of these might be called an average value. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average Average 1a: a single value (such as a mean, mode, or median) that summarizes or represents the general significance of a set of unequal values https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average
        bsanr 6y ago
        >In colloquial language Further, if you go into the definitions of median, mean, and mode on Merriam Webster's, only "mean" actually mentions the word "average." It shows up in the "synonyms" section for median, hilariously, but not in the definition itself. It is then probably least incorrect to assume that average refers to the mean unless there is some previous understanding that it doesn't (and since you presented the other meanings within a hypothetical, obviously there was no such understanding). In any case, since I brought up the word "average" in the first place, and in all reasonability meant it to refer to the mean, I don't know why you're still arguing with me about this. You read an marginal meaning into my text to make a pedantic point and have wasted both our times.
rualca 6y ago
> $50k is not even the average annual income in this country; You really should refresh your statistics. Average means absolutely nothing if you don't take into account how uneven the income distribution is, specially in the US where income inequality reached abismal levels. To focus on the facts, the median household income in the US is close to $63k. Note it's median, not average, and note it's household income, and not anual income. That means that in half of US households you still get a household income lower than those $63k even if you add two incomes. That's how half of the US population lives.
- bsanr 6y ago
  >[...] if you don't take into account how uneven the income distribution is, specially in the US where income inequality reached abismal levels. I did, which is precisely why I used that figure in the first place. I made the (evidently correct) assumption that most people would know that the median income is lower than $50k and the average. Grandparent's "barely rich" figure doesn't even hit the (high-earner overburdened) average, yet is higher than the income the median earner brings home. It's damning and inappropriate from two angles, which brings into question his entire argument.

by bsanr 6y ago

dragonwriter 6y ago

> Doctors and lawyers are not making $50k a year For the most part, no. > $50k is not even the average annual income in this country That depends which average you are referring to. It's well above the median personal income (around $35K)—the median being usually the useful average for income statistics, but a little bit less than the mean personal income. (The most common “average income” number, though, is neither of those, but the median household income, which is close it $70K, but it doesn't really make sense to talk about an individual's income being average or not and looking at a household, instead of individual, metric to judge that.)

bsanr 6y ago
Generally, when one says average, they mean average. I used it deliberately because of the implicit comparison to be made between it and the median, and because of where it compares to the arbitrary $50k figure grandparent chose to swing the conversation around.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Generally, when one says average, they mean average. “Average” is an ambiguous term. The mode, median, and the various (harmonic, geometric, arithmetic) means are all averages. In income statistics specifically, the usual average referenced is the median of the appropriate measure. In context-neutral informal conversation, the arithmetic mean is the most common average. If you want to be clear, its a good idea to avoid “average” and use the specific term for a measure.
  - bsanr 6y ago
    I've heard of the median and mode being associated closely with the "average," but never as a synonym. Actually, I think it's much safer to assume that someone speaking of the average is referring to the mean unless they specifically say "median."
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > I've heard of the median and mode being associated closely with the "average," but never as a synonym. They aren't synonyms, they are more specific terms. In colloquial language, an average is a single number taken as representative of a list of numbers. Different concepts of average are used in different contexts. Often "average" refers to the arithmetic mean, the sum of the numbers divided by how many numbers are being averaged. In statistics, mean, median, and mode are all known as measures of central tendency, and in colloquial usage any of these might be called an average value. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Average Average 1a: a single value (such as a mean, mode, or median) that summarizes or represents the general significance of a set of unequal values https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/average
      - bsanr 6y ago
        >In colloquial language Further, if you go into the definitions of median, mean, and mode on Merriam Webster's, only "mean" actually mentions the word "average." It shows up in the "synonyms" section for median, hilariously, but not in the definition itself. It is then probably least incorrect to assume that average refers to the mean unless there is some previous understanding that it doesn't (and since you presented the other meanings within a hypothetical, obviously there was no such understanding). In any case, since I brought up the word "average" in the first place, and in all reasonability meant it to refer to the mean, I don't know why you're still arguing with me about this. You read an marginal meaning into my text to make a pedantic point and have wasted both our times.

rualca 6y ago

> $50k is not even the average annual income in this country; You really should refresh your statistics. Average means absolutely nothing if you don't take into account how uneven the income distribution is, specially in the US where income inequality reached abismal levels. To focus on the facts, the median household income in the US is close to $63k. Note it's median, not average, and note it's household income, and not anual income. That means that in half of US households you still get a household income lower than those $63k even if you add two incomes. That's how half of the US population lives.

bsanr 6y ago
>[...] if you don't take into account how uneven the income distribution is, specially in the US where income inequality reached abismal levels. I did, which is precisely why I used that figure in the first place. I made the (evidently correct) assumption that most people would know that the median income is lower than $50k and the average. Grandparent's "barely rich" figure doesn't even hit the (high-earner overburdened) average, yet is higher than the income the median earner brings home. It's damning and inappropriate from two angles, which brings into question his entire argument.