5 ms·

> As Daniel Boffey notes for the Guardian, using a metal detector for anything other than scientific research is outlawed in France. Oh wow, there must be a bi

> As Daniel Boffey notes for the Guardian, using a metal detector for anything other than scientific research is outlawed in France. Oh wow, there must be a big story behind this law. How could something so mundane as a metal detector be banned? The article says he "stole these from sites", is that implying he went to active dig sites or public attractions? There is so much to unpack here. Are ground penetrating radars also banned?

cygx 6y ago
Cf https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/journals/opar/2/1/article-opar-2016-0014.pdf.pdf https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/journals/opar/2/1/arti... [PDF] for some background on the law.
rasz 6y ago
Same BS law in Poland. No one bothers to look for stuff, but if you happen to find anything you are automatically a criminal.
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  No, if you do it for personal profit. Its not unreasonable for the rules to be something more than the playground "Finders, Keepers". Grow up. Further, Poland has one of the highest rates of metal detector usage.
  - rasz 6y ago
    We perform a lot of other illegal activities, doesnt change the law. (Ustawa z dnia 23 lipca 2003 r. o ochronie zabytków i opiece nad zabytkami (Dz. U. 2003 Nr 162 poz. 1568) defines metal detector usage a felony, 2018 amendment makes it a crime. https://histmag.org/Wykrywacz-metali-nowe-prawo-w-Polsce-a-poszukiwania-zabytkow-16283 https://histmag.org/Wykrywacz-metali-nowe-prawo-w-Polsce-a-p... TLDR: illegal, ~100K people do it anyway.
    - jacquesm 6y ago
      But something being illegal is actually incentive to give it a shot in Poland, this is ancient tradition. At least since Soviet Bloc times and quite possibly before then. Nielegalny translates roughly as 'must be interesting', or so I'm told ;)
      - rasz 6y ago
        Pre 1989 under Iron Curtain pretty much _everything_ was illegal. Any activity not aligned with primary party goals and thinking lines had some paragraph attached to it. It all stemmed from the "mother country", Stalins Russia. As Beria used to say "Show me the man and I'll show you the crime". Thats Lavrentiy Beria, head of Secret Police under Stalin, and the father of Katyn massacre - murdering 22K Polish military officers with a shot to the back of the head and burying bodies in a forest mass graves. The Death of Stalin (2017) is a lighthearted movie showing the tragedy, farce and terror of living under Soviet rule.
        jacquesm 6y ago
        Poland in 1986 was quite different from what it is today. I don't know how old you are but I remember it quite vividly.
        rasz 6y ago
        I do remember 1986. Ubiquitous queues and ration stamps for petrol, meat, sugar, chocolate, etc. Teacher telling us to report if parents say bad things about people on TV. Oranges once a year for Christmas from Cuba. Lego Technics set worth several salaries after my father smuggled half a car of crystal glassware to East Germany. Hardly any good memories.
        jacquesm 6y ago
        There were good things too: stronger friendships, lots of creativity, less crime (not counting corruption, which was rampant), less drugs. But yes, you're absolutely right, lots of things were quite terrible.
- namenotrequired 6y ago
  Really? Is there no chance to report the find legally?
  - jeltz 6y ago
    Yes and no. You can report finds and get a reward in most countries but you might risk incriminating yourself at the same time in countries where metal detectors are banned. If it is a one off you are fine, but if you go around finding tons of coins all over the country and reporting them it will look suspicious.
  - rasz 6y ago
    Sure, you can report it and there is even a reward, but only if you found something accidentally without searching for it. For example farmer dragging stuff up with a plow, or builder digging a well. Reporting a find with metal detector is a crime with up to ~$100K and 2 year prison sentence, or up to 8 years if experts deem you destroyed something by accitend. https://www.adwokat-prawo.com/post/nie-legalne-hobby-poszukiwanie-zabytk%C3%B3w-wykrywaczem-metali-w-polskim-systemie-prawnym https://www.adwokat-prawo.com/post/nie-legalne-hobby-poszuki...
- lodovic 6y ago
  It really doesn't matter if anyone bothers to look for it. If it's on public land, it belongs to the state. You're also not allowed to chop down a tree or dig a hole.
  - jansan 6y ago
    You surely means it belongs to society.
jeltz 6y ago
The reason is assholes like the guy in this article. Metal detectors are banned in Sweden too and I am all in favor of that law.
- yostrovs 6y ago
  I would rather historically interesting objects that don't belong to anyone be unearthed and return to humanity, be they owned by an individual or a museum. Otherwise they continue degrading under the surface, and what good is that?
  - flagrant 6y ago
    The whole point of these laws is to ensure that interesting objects return to humanity. When an individual digs up an object and keeps it, it has not returned to humanity. Furthermore, information about the object, such as its location and condition is irretrievably lost. If an object cannot be responsibly recovered and catalogued then it should remain in the ground until it can be.
    - yostrovs 6y ago
      You imply that an individual is not part of humanity so that only museums, usually governed by the state, create the illusion of humanity. I disagree. The Chinese government during the Cultural Revolution destroyed nearly the entirety of Chinese historical objects. What was saved by unofficial groups or individuals became Chinese history. I'm just glad the Jacobins are not totally in charge in France, as they would think it better to just melt the finds into useful metal.
      - isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
        The issue is that jackasses don't document their finds. Context in which you found something is as important, if not more, than the item. Not to mention idiots destroy archeo sites because they are interested in trinkets they can sell rather than history itself. There is a reason why you don't dig up the entire site but rather put in a few trenches after noninvasive research.
mulcyber 6y ago
> How could something so mundane as a metal detector be banned? Obviously it's not... The actual law says: "Nul ne peut utiliser du matériel permettant la détection d'objets métalliques, à l'effet de recherches de monuments et d'objets pouvant intéresser la préhistoire, l'histoire, l'art ou l'archéologie, sans avoir, au préalable, obtenu une autorisation administrative délivrée en fonction de la qualification du demandeur ainsi que de la nature et des modalités de la recherche." [Code du patrimoine Article L542-1] "No one can use material allowing detection of metal objects to look for monuments and objects which can interest prehistory, history, art or archeology, without having, beforehand, obtained an administrative authorization delivered depending the qualifications of the applicant and the nature and modalities of the search." So basically you cannot use a metal detector to do illegal archeological search. This law is weird though, since it actually condemn the intent and not the act. I'm no lawyer but I'm guessing it's pretty hard to condemn anyone with this law since anyone thoughtful enough can hide his intent (or at least prevent producing any proof of such intent). https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000006845775/ https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...
Daniel_sk 6y ago
Banned to use for searching artifacts - this is a common ban across EU countries. It's the same in Slovakia. You can buy a metal detector, but it's illegal to use it for this purpose.

cygx 6y ago

Cf https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/journals/opar/2/1/article-opar-2016-0014.pdf.pdf https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/journals/opar/2/1/arti... [PDF] for some background on the law.

rasz 6y ago

Same BS law in Poland. No one bothers to look for stuff, but if you happen to find anything you are automatically a criminal.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago
No, if you do it for personal profit. Its not unreasonable for the rules to be something more than the playground "Finders, Keepers". Grow up. Further, Poland has one of the highest rates of metal detector usage.
- rasz 6y ago
  We perform a lot of other illegal activities, doesnt change the law. (Ustawa z dnia 23 lipca 2003 r. o ochronie zabytków i opiece nad zabytkami (Dz. U. 2003 Nr 162 poz. 1568) defines metal detector usage a felony, 2018 amendment makes it a crime. https://histmag.org/Wykrywacz-metali-nowe-prawo-w-Polsce-a-poszukiwania-zabytkow-16283 https://histmag.org/Wykrywacz-metali-nowe-prawo-w-Polsce-a-p... TLDR: illegal, ~100K people do it anyway.
  - jacquesm 6y ago
    But something being illegal is actually incentive to give it a shot in Poland, this is ancient tradition. At least since Soviet Bloc times and quite possibly before then. Nielegalny translates roughly as 'must be interesting', or so I'm told ;)
    - rasz 6y ago
      Pre 1989 under Iron Curtain pretty much _everything_ was illegal. Any activity not aligned with primary party goals and thinking lines had some paragraph attached to it. It all stemmed from the "mother country", Stalins Russia. As Beria used to say "Show me the man and I'll show you the crime". Thats Lavrentiy Beria, head of Secret Police under Stalin, and the father of Katyn massacre - murdering 22K Polish military officers with a shot to the back of the head and burying bodies in a forest mass graves. The Death of Stalin (2017) is a lighthearted movie showing the tragedy, farce and terror of living under Soviet rule.
      - jacquesm 6y ago
        Poland in 1986 was quite different from what it is today. I don't know how old you are but I remember it quite vividly.
        rasz 6y ago
        I do remember 1986. Ubiquitous queues and ration stamps for petrol, meat, sugar, chocolate, etc. Teacher telling us to report if parents say bad things about people on TV. Oranges once a year for Christmas from Cuba. Lego Technics set worth several salaries after my father smuggled half a car of crystal glassware to East Germany. Hardly any good memories.
        jacquesm 6y ago
        There were good things too: stronger friendships, lots of creativity, less crime (not counting corruption, which was rampant), less drugs. But yes, you're absolutely right, lots of things were quite terrible.
namenotrequired 6y ago
Really? Is there no chance to report the find legally?
- jeltz 6y ago
  Yes and no. You can report finds and get a reward in most countries but you might risk incriminating yourself at the same time in countries where metal detectors are banned. If it is a one off you are fine, but if you go around finding tons of coins all over the country and reporting them it will look suspicious.
- rasz 6y ago
  Sure, you can report it and there is even a reward, but only if you found something accidentally without searching for it. For example farmer dragging stuff up with a plow, or builder digging a well. Reporting a find with metal detector is a crime with up to ~$100K and 2 year prison sentence, or up to 8 years if experts deem you destroyed something by accitend. https://www.adwokat-prawo.com/post/nie-legalne-hobby-poszukiwanie-zabytk%C3%B3w-wykrywaczem-metali-w-polskim-systemie-prawnym https://www.adwokat-prawo.com/post/nie-legalne-hobby-poszuki...
lodovic 6y ago
It really doesn't matter if anyone bothers to look for it. If it's on public land, it belongs to the state. You're also not allowed to chop down a tree or dig a hole.
- jansan 6y ago
  You surely means it belongs to society.

jeltz 6y ago

The reason is assholes like the guy in this article. Metal detectors are banned in Sweden too and I am all in favor of that law.

yostrovs 6y ago
I would rather historically interesting objects that don't belong to anyone be unearthed and return to humanity, be they owned by an individual or a museum. Otherwise they continue degrading under the surface, and what good is that?
- flagrant 6y ago
  The whole point of these laws is to ensure that interesting objects return to humanity. When an individual digs up an object and keeps it, it has not returned to humanity. Furthermore, information about the object, such as its location and condition is irretrievably lost. If an object cannot be responsibly recovered and catalogued then it should remain in the ground until it can be.
  - yostrovs 6y ago
    You imply that an individual is not part of humanity so that only museums, usually governed by the state, create the illusion of humanity. I disagree. The Chinese government during the Cultural Revolution destroyed nearly the entirety of Chinese historical objects. What was saved by unofficial groups or individuals became Chinese history. I'm just glad the Jacobins are not totally in charge in France, as they would think it better to just melt the finds into useful metal.
    - isbvhodnvemrwvn 6y ago
      The issue is that jackasses don't document their finds. Context in which you found something is as important, if not more, than the item. Not to mention idiots destroy archeo sites because they are interested in trinkets they can sell rather than history itself. There is a reason why you don't dig up the entire site but rather put in a few trenches after noninvasive research.

mulcyber 6y ago

> How could something so mundane as a metal detector be banned? Obviously it's not... The actual law says: "Nul ne peut utiliser du matériel permettant la détection d'objets métalliques, à l'effet de recherches de monuments et d'objets pouvant intéresser la préhistoire, l'histoire, l'art ou l'archéologie, sans avoir, au préalable, obtenu une autorisation administrative délivrée en fonction de la qualification du demandeur ainsi que de la nature et des modalités de la recherche." [Code du patrimoine Article L542-1] "No one can use material allowing detection of metal objects to look for monuments and objects which can interest prehistory, history, art or archeology, without having, beforehand, obtained an administrative authorization delivered depending the qualifications of the applicant and the nature and modalities of the search." So basically you cannot use a metal detector to do illegal archeological search. This law is weird though, since it actually condemn the intent and not the act. I'm no lawyer but I'm guessing it's pretty hard to condemn anyone with this law since anyone thoughtful enough can hide his intent (or at least prevent producing any proof of such intent). https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI000006845775/ https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/codes/article_lc/LEGIARTI0000...

Daniel_sk 6y ago

Banned to use for searching artifacts - this is a common ban across EU countries. It's the same in Slovakia. You can buy a metal detector, but it's illegal to use it for this purpose.