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> (Do you get why some people are pushing back on your comment above? You can come up with this kind of stuff for anything. You can't eat an apple today without

by ardy42 6y ago

> (Do you get why some people are pushing back on your comment above? You can come up with this kind of stuff for anything. You can't eat an apple today without possibly furthering child labor, our world is too complex to try and turn every feel good story into a dig for downsides, because they will always exist. It is in no way "important" to do suss them out. And it's fine to discuss them, but you don't need to make it a reaction to the feel good story, you're allowed to just discuss these topics independently of the story) There's actually a problem with "rags to riches" stories, specifically: they're used, sometimes knowingly, sometimes not, to justify and reinforce unjust systems (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rags_to_riches#Criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rags_to_riches#Criticism). Looked at objectively, they're often essentially a dramatic version of someone buying a lottery ticket and winning the jackpot.

BoorishBears 6y ago
If you look at half the top comments, they're actually productively talking about how this story exposes flaws in our economic systems (like how outsourcing has affected the odds someone would care enough about an employer to do this) I'm not saying you can't look at the negatives of stories, far from it, but trying to bring a story to an extremely open-ended negative point is so easy, but adds nothing of value. You could have the conversation separately of the story and lose absolutely nothing, the story is just being used as a springboard then tossed.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
  You're getting very close to the much deeper question: what are these ("rags-to-riches") stories for? And even more generally, what are stories for? Suppose you drop any and all negative criticism of the story. What's left? What's that for? What should anyone make of this story? What lessons can they learn? What true lessons can they learn? What invented lessons can they learn (because sometimes we tell stories to convey invented lessons, rather than ones rooted in truth)? What is it that you want someone to get from a story like this, and do you believe that your desired lesson is useful and/or true?
  - BoorishBears 6y ago
    I don't see why you read a comment saying that it's perfectly fine to look at negatives especially as the relate to the specific story and then want to imply someone is saying we drop all negative criticism. - At the end of the day this feels like such a HN thread. A story can't just be a moment feel good? It has to be reinforcing systematic injustice or a looking glass for how terrible so many have it? It can't just be something that makes you go "huh, neat, good for him" and you move on with life?" Again, I'm not saying it has to be that, I once again reiterate it's fine to look deeper and for negatives, just maybe actually keep it relative to the story... but just "accepting the bait" as it were... Would it really be so terrible if all someone got out of it was a moment of a smile rather than some grand philosophical prototypical mind twisting that defines a story? Stories don't have some sort of "answer" there's no singular reason why they all exist.
    - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
      I am entirely fine with someone saying "all that is intended for this story to do is to elicit a smile". That's an entirely valid thing to say and/or goal to have. However ... having established that as the goal for this particular story, we can ask how well it does that, compared to other stories that might also have this as their only goal. We probably should ask this, because there almost innumerable stories whose primary purpose is to create a smile, and we may as well not waste our time on the less good ones given that we have (individually and as a culture) only a finite time to tell and/or listen to stories. The ranking is necessarily personal (subjective), and incomplete (given the scope of possible stories). Even so, if I was looking for a story to just smile at, I'd rank this one fairly low (mostly because it butts right against the more difficult questions you've asked us to put aside (for a while, at least)).
- deleted 6y ago
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by ardy42 6y ago

BoorishBears 6y ago

If you look at half the top comments, they're actually productively talking about how this story exposes flaws in our economic systems (like how outsourcing has affected the odds someone would care enough about an employer to do this) I'm not saying you can't look at the negatives of stories, far from it, but trying to bring a story to an extremely open-ended negative point is so easy, but adds nothing of value. You could have the conversation separately of the story and lose absolutely nothing, the story is just being used as a springboard then tossed.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
You're getting very close to the much deeper question: what are these ("rags-to-riches") stories for? And even more generally, what are stories for? Suppose you drop any and all negative criticism of the story. What's left? What's that for? What should anyone make of this story? What lessons can they learn? What true lessons can they learn? What invented lessons can they learn (because sometimes we tell stories to convey invented lessons, rather than ones rooted in truth)? What is it that you want someone to get from a story like this, and do you believe that your desired lesson is useful and/or true?
- BoorishBears 6y ago
  I don't see why you read a comment saying that it's perfectly fine to look at negatives especially as the relate to the specific story and then want to imply someone is saying we drop all negative criticism. - At the end of the day this feels like such a HN thread. A story can't just be a moment feel good? It has to be reinforcing systematic injustice or a looking glass for how terrible so many have it? It can't just be something that makes you go "huh, neat, good for him" and you move on with life?" Again, I'm not saying it has to be that, I once again reiterate it's fine to look deeper and for negatives, just maybe actually keep it relative to the story... but just "accepting the bait" as it were... Would it really be so terrible if all someone got out of it was a moment of a smile rather than some grand philosophical prototypical mind twisting that defines a story? Stories don't have some sort of "answer" there's no singular reason why they all exist.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
    I am entirely fine with someone saying "all that is intended for this story to do is to elicit a smile". That's an entirely valid thing to say and/or goal to have. However ... having established that as the goal for this particular story, we can ask how well it does that, compared to other stories that might also have this as their only goal. We probably should ask this, because there almost innumerable stories whose primary purpose is to create a smile, and we may as well not waste our time on the less good ones given that we have (individually and as a culture) only a finite time to tell and/or listen to stories. The ranking is necessarily personal (subjective), and incomplete (given the scope of possible stories). Even so, if I was looking for a story to just smile at, I'd rank this one fairly low (mostly because it butts right against the more difficult questions you've asked us to put aside (for a while, at least)).
deleted 6y ago
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