5 ms·

You can probably just keep the casual racism to yourself.

by mdoms 6y ago

Ancapistani 6y ago
Hold up just a sec here. I’m not sure I that “Indian” is a “race” for any common definition of the word. It’s a nationality, but my my relatively uninformed perspective it appears that there are many ethnic and cultural groups that comprise it. More importantly, you seem to be attributing malice to the GP. They are noticing a cultural difference and asking for context. While their choice of phrasing may seem to some of us to be “problematic”, it looks to me that they are asking a reasonable and valid question. I’ve noticed that these sorts of “feel good”/“just so” stories are very common in Asian cultures. I’ve seen many short movies from Thailand where the downtrodden underdog ends up doing a hugely positive thing and ultimately being appreciated for it. If memory serves, some of them are produced by the state itself. I have no idea what role they serve in their culture, but it’s different enough from my own to be an interesting phenomenon. I certainly don’t think asking about it is a bad thing.
- OJFord 6y ago
  I agree asking about a cultural difference is fine, and I also think there's a way to do it, and that the top-level comment was way wide of that mark: it doesn't read like someone that wants to learn about a culture to me, it reads like someone glad of an opportunity to have a go.
  - oh_sigh 6y ago
    Perhaps you're just hyper sensitive. I'm really just curious why I see these stories posted by Indian people frequently, but far less frequently by, say, Chinese people. Maybe it's just because Indians can more easily be part of the Anglo-web that I'm a part of versus Chinese people. This doesn't prove anything, but I'm married to an Indian person. My child is half Indian. I am not just "having a go". I'm just curious. You need to chill with the assumption that anything you read that is genuine curiosity is racism because of "phrasing".
- notahacker 6y ago
  I'm perfectly willing to believe this is a common thing in Indian culture, but sharing feelgood rags to riches stories involving seizing opportunities with smart capitalists is also a large part of the raison d'etre of HN...
- triceratops 6y ago
  > I’m not sure I that “Indian” is a “race” for any common definition of the word Does it matter? Is negative stereotyping somehow better when applied to a nationality rather than a "race"?
  - googlryas 6y ago
    It only matters if you believe the meanings of words matter. When a woman is attributed negative stereotypes due to her gender in the workplace that disrupts her career, is that "racism"?
    - triceratops 6y ago
      I love the meanings of words. I had a rather long exchange with someone on here a few weeks ago about the difference between "theft" and "robbery". In this case though, the meaning is kinda academic. If you don't get a job or an apartment because of unfair bias, would it make you feel better that it was due to negative stereotypes about your nationality or sex, rather than negative stereotypes about people with your skin color? They're all equally unfair and the outcome is equally negative for you. Bigotry based on any immutable characteristic is equally bad. Ok someone used the wrong label for the specific type of bigotry, so what? Especially in this case, we don't have a good word for bias based on nationality or national origin ("xenophobia"? but what if they're a dual-citizen or citizen of your country? "ethnophobia"? you get my point) We know what they meant, so move on and talk about the bigotry instead of the dictionary. That's why saying "X isn't a race, so it's not 'racism'" is pointless in this context.
      - googlryas 6y ago
        Okay. Let's talk about the bigotry. Is there anything even bigoted in the original post? Would it be racist if an Indian person asked "Why do Americans love guns so much?" to the point of requiring a response chastising the questioner? Different cultures manifest themselves in different behaviors among the individuals of the given culture. If it didn't, the concept of culture wouldn't exist. So what exactly is bigoted if one asks why culture X seems to be prone to telling a certain type of story? Is it also racist to say a lot of magical realism comes out of Colombian culture, and wonder why that is the case?
- stordoff 6y ago
  > I’m not sure I that “Indian” is a “race” for any common definition of the word. It can be in some contexts, for example English law. Equality Act 2010 s.9: > (1) Race includes— (a) colour; (b) nationality; (c) ethnic or national origins. > (4) The fact that a racial group comprises two or more distinct racial groups does not prevent it from constituting a particular racial group.[1] Crime and Disorder Act 1998 s.28(4): > In this section "racial group" means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins.[2] [1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/9 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/9 [2] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/37/section/28 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/37/section/28

You can probably just keep the casual racism to yourself.

by mdoms 6y ago

You can probably just keep the casual racism to yourself.

Hold up just a sec here. I’m not sure I that “Indian” is a “race” for any common definition of the word. It’s a nationality, but my my relatively uninformed perspective it appears that there are many ethnic and cultural groups that comprise it. More importantly, you seem to be attributing malice to the GP. They are noticing a cultural difference and asking for context. While their choice of phrasing may seem to some of us to be “problematic”, it looks to me that they are asking a reasonable and valid question. I’ve noticed that these sorts of “feel good”/“just so” stories are very common in Asian cultures. I’ve seen many short movies from Thailand where the downtrodden underdog ends up doing a hugely positive thing and ultimately being appreciated for it. If memory serves, some of them are produced by the state itself. I have no idea what role they serve in their culture, but it’s different enough from my own to be an interesting phenomenon. I certainly don’t think asking about it is a bad thing.

OJFord 6y ago
I agree asking about a cultural difference is fine, and I also think there's a way to do it, and that the top-level comment was way wide of that mark: it doesn't read like someone that wants to learn about a culture to me, it reads like someone glad of an opportunity to have a go.
- oh_sigh 6y ago
  Perhaps you're just hyper sensitive. I'm really just curious why I see these stories posted by Indian people frequently, but far less frequently by, say, Chinese people. Maybe it's just because Indians can more easily be part of the Anglo-web that I'm a part of versus Chinese people. This doesn't prove anything, but I'm married to an Indian person. My child is half Indian. I am not just "having a go". I'm just curious. You need to chill with the assumption that anything you read that is genuine curiosity is racism because of "phrasing".
notahacker 6y ago
I'm perfectly willing to believe this is a common thing in Indian culture, but sharing feelgood rags to riches stories involving seizing opportunities with smart capitalists is also a large part of the raison d'etre of HN...
triceratops 6y ago
> I’m not sure I that “Indian” is a “race” for any common definition of the word Does it matter? Is negative stereotyping somehow better when applied to a nationality rather than a "race"?
- googlryas 6y ago
  It only matters if you believe the meanings of words matter. When a woman is attributed negative stereotypes due to her gender in the workplace that disrupts her career, is that "racism"?
  - triceratops 6y ago
    I love the meanings of words. I had a rather long exchange with someone on here a few weeks ago about the difference between "theft" and "robbery". In this case though, the meaning is kinda academic. If you don't get a job or an apartment because of unfair bias, would it make you feel better that it was due to negative stereotypes about your nationality or sex, rather than negative stereotypes about people with your skin color? They're all equally unfair and the outcome is equally negative for you. Bigotry based on any immutable characteristic is equally bad. Ok someone used the wrong label for the specific type of bigotry, so what? Especially in this case, we don't have a good word for bias based on nationality or national origin ("xenophobia"? but what if they're a dual-citizen or citizen of your country? "ethnophobia"? you get my point) We know what they meant, so move on and talk about the bigotry instead of the dictionary. That's why saying "X isn't a race, so it's not 'racism'" is pointless in this context.
    - googlryas 6y ago
      Okay. Let's talk about the bigotry. Is there anything even bigoted in the original post? Would it be racist if an Indian person asked "Why do Americans love guns so much?" to the point of requiring a response chastising the questioner? Different cultures manifest themselves in different behaviors among the individuals of the given culture. If it didn't, the concept of culture wouldn't exist. So what exactly is bigoted if one asks why culture X seems to be prone to telling a certain type of story? Is it also racist to say a lot of magical realism comes out of Colombian culture, and wonder why that is the case?
stordoff 6y ago
> I’m not sure I that “Indian” is a “race” for any common definition of the word. It can be in some contexts, for example English law. Equality Act 2010 s.9: > (1) Race includes— (a) colour; (b) nationality; (c) ethnic or national origins. > (4) The fact that a racial group comprises two or more distinct racial groups does not prevent it from constituting a particular racial group.[1] Crime and Disorder Act 1998 s.28(4): > In this section "racial group" means a group of persons defined by reference to race, colour, nationality (including citizenship) or ethnic or national origins.[2] [1] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/9 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/9 [2] https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/37/section/28 https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/37/section/28