4 ms·

I hope this isn't the beginnings of a "true communism" type of argument. If it is, let's save some time and acknowledge the same can be said for "true capitalis

by ivojp 6y ago

I hope this isn't the beginnings of a "true communism" type of argument. If it is, let's save some time and acknowledge the same can be said for "true capitalism" where the latter lacks the body count of the former. And whether or not you think China is not an implementation of communism, both their government and its subjects would largely disagree.

aaron-santos 6y ago
Just curious, what do you think the body count of the later is?
- ivojp 6y ago
  Well, counting up all the times in human history that governments had to violently force their subjects to accept private property rights or their ability to alienate their labor... let's see 0 + 0...carry the 1....um I've arrived at 0.
  - pmiller2 6y ago
    I see. So, all the wars of imperialism of the last 300 years didn't happen? Thousands of people don't die in the US alone every year because they can't afford medical care? You're either being deliberately disingenuous, or channelling your 14 year old nephew who's an "ancap" because it's edgy, even though he doesn't own any actual capital, if you think the body count of capitalism is really 0.
    - ivojp 6y ago
      Is imperialism unique to capitalism? What about capitalism necessitates imperialism? Was Soviet Russia not imperialist when it conquered much of eastern Europe? Is China's expansion and One-China policy not imperialist? Is quality healthcare tied to the economic engine of its country? How is universal health care in North Korea? Pretty good? You're conflating separate issues and presenting them as indictments of capitalism. That is either deliberately disingenuous or horribly ignorant. Either way, I suggest you pick up a book other than A People's History of the United States. UPDATE: Small addendum since you are confused as to what capitalism is. Your 14 year old nephew does own capital: their labor. Their ability, depending on labor laws in their state, allow them to offer that labor in whichever market or not. An option that would be deprived of them in a system that follows the prescriptions of "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs."
      - medicineman 6y ago
        Communism is a woke ideology to these people here. Notice how the upvotes work? Communism good, capitalism bad! Grug mad!
      - fabianhjr 6y ago
        > Small addendum since you are confused as to what capitalism is. Your 14 year old nephew does own capital: their labor Their labour is a factor of production but it is _not_ capital. Here is an introduction to the factors of production: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Factors_of_production https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Factors_of_production . (Notice that both in classical/liberal economics and marxist economics labour is distinct from capital) > Their ability, depending on labor laws in their state, allow them to offer that labor in whichever market or not. That is a commodity and _not_ capital and is normally discussed as the commodification of labour: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Commodity https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Commodity (Addendum: there are many examples of regulated commodities like those containing tabacco and alcoholic beverages) > An option that would be deprived of them in a system that follows the prescriptions of "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs." How so? They would still be able to labour (according to their ability) and would receive what they need (food, housing, medical treatment, education, entretainment, etc.) according to their need. Even in a capitalist mode of production you cannot "choose" to labour in a particular employment. The employer would gauge ability and the most effective number of employees; Lets assume that hypothetical nephew doesn't know how to cook and wants to work as a chef in a gourmet restaurant or isn't a nuclear engineer/scientist and wants to work as a nuclear plant operator like a fellow named Simpson.
        pmiller2 6y ago
        It always amazes me how ignorant most of the so called "capitalists" (who generally control little to no actual capital) are. Thanks for showing me at least someone paid attention in economics (or maybe history) class.
        aaron-santos 6y ago
        It's a necessary condition. The curriculum is crafted specifically in this way. See for example A TEACHER GUIDE TO THE CALIFORNIA ECONOMICS STANDARDS[1]. From unit 1.2: > HUMAN CAPITAL[Many textbooks discuss “labor” instead of ‘human capital.” We use “human capital” because it involves much more than physical attributes and helps students focus on the reason why they are in school.] Student's earliest exposure to formal economic education begins with definitions that deceive people into believing they are capitalists when they are in fact selling their labor power for wages. [1] - https://www.ccee.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/OTHER_PDFS/teacherguide_preview.pdf https://www.ccee.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/OTHER_PDFS...
  - aaron-santos 6y ago
    I don't quite understand how you get that number. Do you care to explain a bit more?
  - heavyset_go 6y ago
    The Great Irish famine was a product of market capitalism[1] and private property[2], killing over 1 million people. The Bengal Famine killed over 10 million people[3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Food_exports_during_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Food_ex... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Causes_and_contributing_factors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Causes_... [3] https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2014/7/17/1314447/-Capitalism-and-Rule-by-Corporation https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2014/7/17/1314447/-Capitali...
  - anigbrowl 6y ago
    Ahistorical. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure
deleted 6y ago
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by ivojp 6y ago

aaron-santos 6y ago

Just curious, what do you think the body count of the later is?

ivojp 6y ago
Well, counting up all the times in human history that governments had to violently force their subjects to accept private property rights or their ability to alienate their labor... let's see 0 + 0...carry the 1....um I've arrived at 0.
- pmiller2 6y ago
  I see. So, all the wars of imperialism of the last 300 years didn't happen? Thousands of people don't die in the US alone every year because they can't afford medical care? You're either being deliberately disingenuous, or channelling your 14 year old nephew who's an "ancap" because it's edgy, even though he doesn't own any actual capital, if you think the body count of capitalism is really 0.
  - ivojp 6y ago
    Is imperialism unique to capitalism? What about capitalism necessitates imperialism? Was Soviet Russia not imperialist when it conquered much of eastern Europe? Is China's expansion and One-China policy not imperialist? Is quality healthcare tied to the economic engine of its country? How is universal health care in North Korea? Pretty good? You're conflating separate issues and presenting them as indictments of capitalism. That is either deliberately disingenuous or horribly ignorant. Either way, I suggest you pick up a book other than A People's History of the United States. UPDATE: Small addendum since you are confused as to what capitalism is. Your 14 year old nephew does own capital: their labor. Their ability, depending on labor laws in their state, allow them to offer that labor in whichever market or not. An option that would be deprived of them in a system that follows the prescriptions of "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs."
    - medicineman 6y ago
      Communism is a woke ideology to these people here. Notice how the upvotes work? Communism good, capitalism bad! Grug mad!
    - fabianhjr 6y ago
      > Small addendum since you are confused as to what capitalism is. Your 14 year old nephew does own capital: their labor Their labour is a factor of production but it is _not_ capital. Here is an introduction to the factors of production: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Factors_of_production https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Factors_of_production . (Notice that both in classical/liberal economics and marxist economics labour is distinct from capital) > Their ability, depending on labor laws in their state, allow them to offer that labor in whichever market or not. That is a commodity and _not_ capital and is normally discussed as the commodification of labour: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Commodity https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Commodity (Addendum: there are many examples of regulated commodities like those containing tabacco and alcoholic beverages) > An option that would be deprived of them in a system that follows the prescriptions of "from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs." How so? They would still be able to labour (according to their ability) and would receive what they need (food, housing, medical treatment, education, entretainment, etc.) according to their need. Even in a capitalist mode of production you cannot "choose" to labour in a particular employment. The employer would gauge ability and the most effective number of employees; Lets assume that hypothetical nephew doesn't know how to cook and wants to work as a chef in a gourmet restaurant or isn't a nuclear engineer/scientist and wants to work as a nuclear plant operator like a fellow named Simpson.
      - pmiller2 6y ago
        It always amazes me how ignorant most of the so called "capitalists" (who generally control little to no actual capital) are. Thanks for showing me at least someone paid attention in economics (or maybe history) class.
        aaron-santos 6y ago
        It's a necessary condition. The curriculum is crafted specifically in this way. See for example A TEACHER GUIDE TO THE CALIFORNIA ECONOMICS STANDARDS[1]. From unit 1.2: > HUMAN CAPITAL[Many textbooks discuss “labor” instead of ‘human capital.” We use “human capital” because it involves much more than physical attributes and helps students focus on the reason why they are in school.] Student's earliest exposure to formal economic education begins with definitions that deceive people into believing they are capitalists when they are in fact selling their labor power for wages. [1] - https://www.ccee.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/OTHER_PDFS/teacherguide_preview.pdf https://www.ccee.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/OTHER_PDFS...
- aaron-santos 6y ago
  I don't quite understand how you get that number. Do you care to explain a bit more?
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  The Great Irish famine was a product of market capitalism[1] and private property[2], killing over 1 million people. The Bengal Famine killed over 10 million people[3]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Food_exports_during_Famine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Food_ex... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Causes_and_contributing_factors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)#Causes_... [3] https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2014/7/17/1314447/-Capitalism-and-Rule-by-Corporation https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2014/7/17/1314447/-Capitali...
- anigbrowl 6y ago
  Ahistorical. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure

deleted 6y ago

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