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I just want to make this political science point absolutely clear without ambiguity: when an illegitimate (non-democratic/non-consenting) regime engages in "ant

I just want to make this political science point absolutely clear without ambiguity: when an illegitimate (non-democratic/non-consenting) regime engages in "anti-corruption" they are doing nothing more than purging disloyalty to the whim and power of the Leader. Nothing more, nothing less. Period.

sudosysgen 6y ago
This is often the case. It's absolutely not always the case. Undemocratic political systems don't even always have power concentrated in one person, and empirically here officials compromised by the US were caught up as taking bribes and removed from the system. Empirically too, the process was also used to drive up public support. The data was also shared with other countries as it helped them uncover foreign CIA spies, which shows that the program certainly had a counterintelligence purpose. Such total conclusions are very rarely true. Here, they aren't.
- jasonzemos 6y ago
  > Undemocratic political systems don't even always have power concentrated in one person This is absolutely correct, which frames my point in an even worse light. The whims and power of the Leader are the whims of subordinates to the leader, who are superiors to further subordinates. Western continental philosophy, Heidegger, Arendt, Levinas, all framed this concept under the term "The Totality." It's fascinating.
  - markus_zhang 6y ago
    Framing Western philosophy on Eastern geopolitics might give you a fancy picture. It lets you feel comfortable, but it's a departure from reality.
    - jasonzemos 6y ago
      Reality appears to contain giant statues of a European Jewish Socialist heralded throughout Beijing. If the East was so proud of some original political system held as "superior to democracy" -- why does the ruling regime employ the same tactics to hold power over the affairs of men as documented by a 16th century Italian? Politics might be flavored and seasoned by locale, race and culture, but the meat is all the same and always has been. To conclude otherwise, or make China a "special case" is probably racism. It also denudes the notion of universal human rights.
      - markus_zhang 6y ago
        Power struggle has been the same since the dawn of human civilization, regardless of where you are. As you said, meat is all the same.
boublepop 6y ago
Can’t tell if you are being ironic or not. But it’s worth throwing in there that the democratically elected leader Donald Trumps pledge to “clean the swamp” has left the government controlled by family and loyalists. And while consensus is that USA isn’t a highly democratic country, it is typically lumped in with others higher on the democratic index, so it the whole anti-corruption=Purging might just be a general rule not something limited to non-democratic countries. Unless you count USA as being completely non-democratic, which seems a hyperbole, at least unless the current administration refuses to step down and carries on through a coup.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  > it’s worth throwing in there that the democratically elected leader Donald Trumps pledge to “clean the swamp” has left the government controlled by family and loyalists He's certainly put on display just how horribly the system functions and it's clear he's more of a symptom than a cause of the dysfunction. There wasn't even a pretense of a good faith effort to try to cooperate and start cleaning house. By virtue of beating Clinton and easily taking the nomination as the Republican candidate goes to show how hollow both parties were already. The void of competent and appealing politicians - that represent anyone - was begging for someone like him to enter the scene. And that's why it's funny to watch all the horrified "decent" politics nerds of the establishment try to find the perfect insult or scandal that would destroy him - they don't get why he was elected. He was elected as an insult to Washington. Trying to insult or pick apart the insult is useless.
tinza123 6y ago
Since when is "democracy" the golden standard for every culture and every country? Politics are all about trade-offs, among efficiency, centralized power, poverty to solve, nationality and defence, and many other aspects. Democracy can be beneficial but it sucks at so many things, and it's normally short-sighted. Is Singapore, with less democratic system, not as "legitimate" as the U.S.? Your opinion sounds like a 5-yr old talking about politics.
- jasonzemos 6y ago
  I'd like to apologize for simply not using the phrase "non-consenting." Including the word "democratic" in my point is probably far too convoluted. The definition of a legitimate regime (going back to Locke's treatise on government) is one that has consent of the people. Democracy (as a whole system in its many diverse forms) and elections (as part of that system to sample the people directly), and self-government itself: where you and your ordinary civilian neighbors are physically involved in the governance of your locality, rather than cadres sent from the central government -- the confluence of all of this is legitimacy.
pjc50 6y ago
qv Brazil: https://www.ft.com/content/0f31cdb4-b1e1-11e9-bec9-fdcab53d6959 https://www.ft.com/content/0f31cdb4-b1e1-11e9-bec9-fdcab53d6... Of course, it's entirely possible that in many places everyone is corrupt to some extent, so who gets prosecuted is simply an expression of the factional power struggle.

sudosysgen 6y ago

This is often the case. It's absolutely not always the case. Undemocratic political systems don't even always have power concentrated in one person, and empirically here officials compromised by the US were caught up as taking bribes and removed from the system. Empirically too, the process was also used to drive up public support. The data was also shared with other countries as it helped them uncover foreign CIA spies, which shows that the program certainly had a counterintelligence purpose. Such total conclusions are very rarely true. Here, they aren't.

jasonzemos 6y ago
> Undemocratic political systems don't even always have power concentrated in one person This is absolutely correct, which frames my point in an even worse light. The whims and power of the Leader are the whims of subordinates to the leader, who are superiors to further subordinates. Western continental philosophy, Heidegger, Arendt, Levinas, all framed this concept under the term "The Totality." It's fascinating.
- markus_zhang 6y ago
  Framing Western philosophy on Eastern geopolitics might give you a fancy picture. It lets you feel comfortable, but it's a departure from reality.
  - jasonzemos 6y ago
    Reality appears to contain giant statues of a European Jewish Socialist heralded throughout Beijing. If the East was so proud of some original political system held as "superior to democracy" -- why does the ruling regime employ the same tactics to hold power over the affairs of men as documented by a 16th century Italian? Politics might be flavored and seasoned by locale, race and culture, but the meat is all the same and always has been. To conclude otherwise, or make China a "special case" is probably racism. It also denudes the notion of universal human rights.
    - markus_zhang 6y ago
      Power struggle has been the same since the dawn of human civilization, regardless of where you are. As you said, meat is all the same.

boublepop 6y ago

Can’t tell if you are being ironic or not. But it’s worth throwing in there that the democratically elected leader Donald Trumps pledge to “clean the swamp” has left the government controlled by family and loyalists. And while consensus is that USA isn’t a highly democratic country, it is typically lumped in with others higher on the democratic index, so it the whole anti-corruption=Purging might just be a general rule not something limited to non-democratic countries. Unless you count USA as being completely non-democratic, which seems a hyperbole, at least unless the current administration refuses to step down and carries on through a coup.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
> it’s worth throwing in there that the democratically elected leader Donald Trumps pledge to “clean the swamp” has left the government controlled by family and loyalists He's certainly put on display just how horribly the system functions and it's clear he's more of a symptom than a cause of the dysfunction. There wasn't even a pretense of a good faith effort to try to cooperate and start cleaning house. By virtue of beating Clinton and easily taking the nomination as the Republican candidate goes to show how hollow both parties were already. The void of competent and appealing politicians - that represent anyone - was begging for someone like him to enter the scene. And that's why it's funny to watch all the horrified "decent" politics nerds of the establishment try to find the perfect insult or scandal that would destroy him - they don't get why he was elected. He was elected as an insult to Washington. Trying to insult or pick apart the insult is useless.

tinza123 6y ago

Since when is "democracy" the golden standard for every culture and every country? Politics are all about trade-offs, among efficiency, centralized power, poverty to solve, nationality and defence, and many other aspects. Democracy can be beneficial but it sucks at so many things, and it's normally short-sighted. Is Singapore, with less democratic system, not as "legitimate" as the U.S.? Your opinion sounds like a 5-yr old talking about politics.

jasonzemos 6y ago
I'd like to apologize for simply not using the phrase "non-consenting." Including the word "democratic" in my point is probably far too convoluted. The definition of a legitimate regime (going back to Locke's treatise on government) is one that has consent of the people. Democracy (as a whole system in its many diverse forms) and elections (as part of that system to sample the people directly), and self-government itself: where you and your ordinary civilian neighbors are physically involved in the governance of your locality, rather than cadres sent from the central government -- the confluence of all of this is legitimacy.

pjc50 6y ago

qv Brazil: https://www.ft.com/content/0f31cdb4-b1e1-11e9-bec9-fdcab53d6959 https://www.ft.com/content/0f31cdb4-b1e1-11e9-bec9-fdcab53d6... Of course, it's entirely possible that in many places everyone is corrupt to some extent, so who gets prosecuted is simply an expression of the factional power struggle.