4 ms·

We lose trust in institutions when prospective government employees cheat on maths tests, but when they dropped the white phosphorous on villagers, massacred ch

We lose trust in institutions when prospective government employees cheat on maths tests, but when they dropped the white phosphorous on villagers, massacred children, burned down peoples farms, etc in the war that occured between 2001-present... we wondered about brad pitt, paris hilton... and kim kardashians hair colour. We want them to be really really good at following orders and not to think too much about the moral aspect of bombing civilians. The reason cheating is banned in West Point is not because it is wrong, but because it displays that people prioritise their own individuality over that of the institution, and that they do not blindly believe in its ideals

engineer_22 6y ago
-> when they dropped the white phosphorous on villagers, massacred children, burned down peoples farms, etc in the war that occured between 2001-present Please cite sources.
- kenned3 6y ago
  I am not the one who posted about this.. but it annoys me when people dont google things.. https://www.washingtonpost.com/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/ washington post good enough for you?
  - engineer_22 6y ago
    ? Thanks for sharing
- KLexpat 6y ago
  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/06/09/u-s-led-forces-appear-to-be-using-white-phosphorous-in-populated-areas-in-iraq-and-syria/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/06/09... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_ab... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maywand_District_murders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maywand_District_murders https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/21/afghanistan-trophy-photos-us-soldier https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/21/afghanistan-tr... https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/collateral_damage_from_cambodia_to_iraq.pdf https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/collateral_damage_f... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/terrorism.afghanistan2 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/terrorism.afgh... https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-opium-poppy-production/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/... "But within a year, Operation Iron Tempest had fizzled out. Many of the suspected labs turned out to be empty, mud-walled compounds. After more than 200 airstrikes, the U.S. military concluded it was a waste of resources to keep blowing up primitive targets with advanced aircraft and laser-guided munitions." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/20/afghanistan-us-confirms-drone-attack-that-killed-30-farmers https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/20/afghanistan-us-conf...
  - engineer_22 6y ago
    Thank you, wasn't aware of many of these incidents. GP has a good point.
bumby 6y ago
>We want them to be really really good at following orders and not to think I know this is common trope but tends to be more widely held by those with limited military experience. For example, U.S. Marines are often considered highly disciplined (sometimes conflated with being very good at blindly following orders). From boot camp onward, they are encouraged (sometimes mandated) to read from the Commandant’s reading list. A perennial favorite to assign junior enlisted is A Message to Garcia. However, after nearly 40 years, it was removed from the list explicitly because the message was often misinterpreted as advocating strict obedience and went against the intent to promote independent thought. Particularly in counter insurgency, the military wants/needs critical thinking, not blind obedience.
- croissants 6y ago
  Does the military want critical thinking from its lowest soldiers? As a person with close to no military knowledge, my understanding is that the U.S. Marines are more of an "elite" group and might therefore be more empowered as decision-makers.
  - bumby 6y ago
    In general, I would say yes. I think there is a realization that a counter insurgency will struggle if low ranking troops are not thinking clearly. A single bad decision from a Lance Corporal can erode months/years of effort or escalate into an international incident. Actually, I believe the Marines have the lowest intellectual bar of entry and the highest physical one for any branch. To your point, they do push small unit leadership to a lower level, which may be why they try to advocate a leadership mindset at low levels.
  - scruple 6y ago
    The USMC Leadership Principles are public [0]. The Army Leadership Principles are, as well, [1]. They're worth reading. [0]: MCTP 206-10B, Appendix B: https://www.marines.mil/portals/1/Publications/MCTP%206-10B%20(Formerly%20MCRP%206-11B).pdf?ver=2016-06-27-164041-660 https://www.marines.mil/portals/1/Publications/MCTP%206-10B%... [1]: ADRP 6-22: https://www.benning.army.mil/mssp/pdf/adrp6_22_new.pdf https://www.benning.army.mil/mssp/pdf/adrp6_22_new.pdf
inglor_cz 6y ago
Maybe we lose trust in institutions simply because their shortcomings are harder to hide in the networked age. You could sweep a lot under the carpet before, thus improving your image in face of the world.
- bilbo0s 6y ago
  I don't think we should overlook the fact that a larger part of the issue may be that there simply was much less to sweep under the carpet in previous eras. Society today is much, much larger and more complex than society in George Washington's day. (Much more complex than in any time in history in fact.) This is not to imply that George Washington is no better than the corrupt politicians, judges and police we have today. George Washington was, by all accounts, a very good man. My only point was that it was far easier to actually be a good man in the time of George Washington than it is to be a good man or woman today. Not even a tenth of the opportunities to get yourself in trouble back then.
  - inglor_cz 6y ago
    The question is: was it easier to be a good man in a position of power? My impression is that e.g. British elite at the time of American war of independence was fabulously corrupt.

engineer_22 6y ago

-> when they dropped the white phosphorous on villagers, massacred children, burned down peoples farms, etc in the war that occured between 2001-present Please cite sources.

kenned3 6y ago
I am not the one who posted about this.. but it annoys me when people dont google things.. https://www.washingtonpost.com/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/ washington post good enough for you?
- engineer_22 6y ago
  ? Thanks for sharing
KLexpat 6y ago
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/06/09/u-s-led-forces-appear-to-be-using-white-phosphorous-in-populated-areas-in-iraq-and-syria/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/checkpoint/wp/2017/06/09... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_abuse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_torture_and_prisoner_ab... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maywand_District_murders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maywand_District_murders https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/21/afghanistan-trophy-photos-us-soldier https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/21/afghanistan-tr... https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/collateral_damage_from_cambodia_to_iraq.pdf https://gsp.yale.edu/sites/default/files/collateral_damage_f... https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/terrorism.afghanistan2 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/terrorism.afgh... https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-opium-poppy-production/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/... "But within a year, Operation Iron Tempest had fizzled out. Many of the suspected labs turned out to be empty, mud-walled compounds. After more than 200 airstrikes, the U.S. military concluded it was a waste of resources to keep blowing up primitive targets with advanced aircraft and laser-guided munitions." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/20/afghanistan-us-confirms-drone-attack-that-killed-30-farmers https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/9/20/afghanistan-us-conf...
- engineer_22 6y ago
  Thank you, wasn't aware of many of these incidents. GP has a good point.

bumby 6y ago

>We want them to be really really good at following orders and not to think I know this is common trope but tends to be more widely held by those with limited military experience. For example, U.S. Marines are often considered highly disciplined (sometimes conflated with being very good at blindly following orders). From boot camp onward, they are encouraged (sometimes mandated) to read from the Commandant’s reading list. A perennial favorite to assign junior enlisted is A Message to Garcia. However, after nearly 40 years, it was removed from the list explicitly because the message was often misinterpreted as advocating strict obedience and went against the intent to promote independent thought. Particularly in counter insurgency, the military wants/needs critical thinking, not blind obedience.

croissants 6y ago
Does the military want critical thinking from its lowest soldiers? As a person with close to no military knowledge, my understanding is that the U.S. Marines are more of an "elite" group and might therefore be more empowered as decision-makers.
- bumby 6y ago
  In general, I would say yes. I think there is a realization that a counter insurgency will struggle if low ranking troops are not thinking clearly. A single bad decision from a Lance Corporal can erode months/years of effort or escalate into an international incident. Actually, I believe the Marines have the lowest intellectual bar of entry and the highest physical one for any branch. To your point, they do push small unit leadership to a lower level, which may be why they try to advocate a leadership mindset at low levels.
- scruple 6y ago
  The USMC Leadership Principles are public [0]. The Army Leadership Principles are, as well, [1]. They're worth reading. [0]: MCTP 206-10B, Appendix B: https://www.marines.mil/portals/1/Publications/MCTP%206-10B%20(Formerly%20MCRP%206-11B).pdf?ver=2016-06-27-164041-660 https://www.marines.mil/portals/1/Publications/MCTP%206-10B%... [1]: ADRP 6-22: https://www.benning.army.mil/mssp/pdf/adrp6_22_new.pdf https://www.benning.army.mil/mssp/pdf/adrp6_22_new.pdf

inglor_cz 6y ago

Maybe we lose trust in institutions simply because their shortcomings are harder to hide in the networked age. You could sweep a lot under the carpet before, thus improving your image in face of the world.

bilbo0s 6y ago
I don't think we should overlook the fact that a larger part of the issue may be that there simply was much less to sweep under the carpet in previous eras. Society today is much, much larger and more complex than society in George Washington's day. (Much more complex than in any time in history in fact.) This is not to imply that George Washington is no better than the corrupt politicians, judges and police we have today. George Washington was, by all accounts, a very good man. My only point was that it was far easier to actually be a good man in the time of George Washington than it is to be a good man or woman today. Not even a tenth of the opportunities to get yourself in trouble back then.
- inglor_cz 6y ago
  The question is: was it easier to be a good man in a position of power? My impression is that e.g. British elite at the time of American war of independence was fabulously corrupt.