5 ms·

Ask HN: Should we be concerned? Potential partner uses proprietary framework.

8 points by splitpop 15y ago

I'm an intern at a growing, local web development firm. I've worked with this startup for one year. Late last year, I partnered with a group of students to form a business. Over the past five months, we've worked to develop a solid business model, talked with potential customers, and now we're ready to start software development. My boss expressed interest in a mutual partnership and we've begun moving in that direction (although, no written contracts have been signed by either party). If we form this partnership, our software will be written in a proprietary framework solely owned by this firm. We're wary to jump into this arrangement for several reasons: 1) We won't own all of the code. The codebase would be licensed to us by the firm in return for minimal equity (less than 5%) in the company. 2) The firm's framework has gone through several revisions over the past few years. The latest revision was a complete overhaul. Even though the firm has built some impressive web applications with the framework, we're concerned about the overall quality of this codebase. Despite these concerns, there are some positive aspects to the arrangement. We'll have easy, cheap (read: free for now) access to existing hosting services. I have extensive experience with the framework and feel comfortable undertaking the software development of our project. We're in an awkward situation, because saying "No, we're not interested" could damage our relationship with an otherwise very connected individual with many valuable contacts. Are there any others out there that have encountered similar situations? For those that are ahead of us, what advice do you have? EDIT: Formatting.

arkitaip 15y ago
"The codebase would be licensed to us by the firm in return for minimal equity (less than 5%) in the company" I've never heard of such an arrangement. What does licensed even mean?
- splitpop 15y ago
  We would use the firm's framework to develop our product. We would not have any ownership of the framework.
  - veb 15y ago
    What language?
    - splitpop 15y ago
      PHP
      - MattBearman 15y ago
        There are so many good, well supported and easy to use PHP frameworks out there, I really can't see a good reason to take them up on this deal. A bit of hosting isn't worth being locked in like that.
        splitpop 15y ago
        We're not in it just for the hosting, but for the networking and the advice. The framework is an extension of and takes a lot of queues from Zend.
SandB0x 15y ago
This sounds awful. One of the main considerations when picking any kind of framework is: What kind of community is there? If I run into a problem, how likely is it that someone else has solved it first? Will it still be popular in a few years? If you use say Rails or Django you can be pretty confident about these things. But a proprietary framework that's been created by a group of students? In PHP? http://i.imgur.com/AHqEn.jpg http://i.imgur.com/AHqEn.jpg ? Unless there's something big you're not telling us I wouldn't touch this with a bargepole. Edit: Ah, so not created by students. But everything else stands - the whole arrangement sounds like huge risk unless their framework does something amazing.
- splitpop 15y ago
  The framework was created by the firm that wants to partner with us. Sorry if that wasn't clear from the original post.
- gexla 15y ago
  What is a web framework (typically) but a router, some sort of MVC scheme and other various libraries? Hopefully it's modular, then I would just use whatever components I wanted and leave the rest.
Travis 15y ago
Being at the whim of another company potentially places you in a very compromising position. I wouldn't do it. It doesn't sound like there are any technological or product dev advantages to using their framework. Even if that's not what you meant to say, I suspect that it's true (unless they have build something as-yet-unheard-of in PHP, which seems unlikely). I would look for a polite way to decline the licensing deal. Tell him that you want to develop it in a different language. It shouldn't be hard defending the decision to move away from PHP. At the same time as you say that, I would extend some sort of other offer to your boss. If they are as important and influential as you believe, then it's worth having them on board. However, I would want their compensation based on their contributions, not something ancillary (like running the company that owns the underlying framework). Chances are that he just wants to be involved -- so offer him some compensation in exchange for networking on your behalf, or serving on the board. Again, if he's influential enough to warrant giving up 5% of the company, you should compensate him directly for that. Especially considering the alternative is super weird sounding -- licensing a proprietary framework (in PHP, no less) from a company just to not offend this man. That could put you under their thumb (even unintentionally -- what if they go out of business?) without offering any value in return.
- splitpop 15y ago
  "Being at the whim of another company potentially places you in a very compromising position. I wouldn't do it." This was one of my concerns that I did not elaborate on. Our growth could be limited by the partnership. "Chances are that he just wants to be involved -- so offer him some compensation in exchange for networking on your behalf, or serving on the board." I suspect you're right on this account. This sounds like a reasonable offer.
  - Travis 15y ago
    It also allows you to incentivize his participation with compensation. If you really want him to network for you, make his equity based on that. I would also take it as a compliment. It sounds like he just wants a way to participate.
jdietrich 15y ago
Don't walk, run.

8 points by splitpop 15y ago

arkitaip 15y ago

"The codebase would be licensed to us by the firm in return for minimal equity (less than 5%) in the company" I've never heard of such an arrangement. What does licensed even mean?

splitpop 15y ago
We would use the firm's framework to develop our product. We would not have any ownership of the framework.
- veb 15y ago
  What language?
  - splitpop 15y ago
    PHP
    - MattBearman 15y ago
      There are so many good, well supported and easy to use PHP frameworks out there, I really can't see a good reason to take them up on this deal. A bit of hosting isn't worth being locked in like that.
      - splitpop 15y ago
        We're not in it just for the hosting, but for the networking and the advice. The framework is an extension of and takes a lot of queues from Zend.

SandB0x 15y ago

This sounds awful. One of the main considerations when picking any kind of framework is: What kind of community is there? If I run into a problem, how likely is it that someone else has solved it first? Will it still be popular in a few years? If you use say Rails or Django you can be pretty confident about these things. But a proprietary framework that's been created by a group of students? In PHP? http://i.imgur.com/AHqEn.jpg http://i.imgur.com/AHqEn.jpg ? Unless there's something big you're not telling us I wouldn't touch this with a bargepole. Edit: Ah, so not created by students. But everything else stands - the whole arrangement sounds like huge risk unless their framework does something amazing.

splitpop 15y ago
The framework was created by the firm that wants to partner with us. Sorry if that wasn't clear from the original post.
gexla 15y ago
What is a web framework (typically) but a router, some sort of MVC scheme and other various libraries? Hopefully it's modular, then I would just use whatever components I wanted and leave the rest.

Travis 15y ago

Being at the whim of another company potentially places you in a very compromising position. I wouldn't do it. It doesn't sound like there are any technological or product dev advantages to using their framework. Even if that's not what you meant to say, I suspect that it's true (unless they have build something as-yet-unheard-of in PHP, which seems unlikely). I would look for a polite way to decline the licensing deal. Tell him that you want to develop it in a different language. It shouldn't be hard defending the decision to move away from PHP. At the same time as you say that, I would extend some sort of other offer to your boss. If they are as important and influential as you believe, then it's worth having them on board. However, I would want their compensation based on their contributions, not something ancillary (like running the company that owns the underlying framework). Chances are that he just wants to be involved -- so offer him some compensation in exchange for networking on your behalf, or serving on the board. Again, if he's influential enough to warrant giving up 5% of the company, you should compensate him directly for that. Especially considering the alternative is super weird sounding -- licensing a proprietary framework (in PHP, no less) from a company just to not offend this man. That could put you under their thumb (even unintentionally -- what if they go out of business?) without offering any value in return.

splitpop 15y ago
"Being at the whim of another company potentially places you in a very compromising position. I wouldn't do it." This was one of my concerns that I did not elaborate on. Our growth could be limited by the partnership. "Chances are that he just wants to be involved -- so offer him some compensation in exchange for networking on your behalf, or serving on the board." I suspect you're right on this account. This sounds like a reasonable offer.
- Travis 15y ago
  It also allows you to incentivize his participation with compensation. If you really want him to network for you, make his equity based on that. I would also take it as a compliment. It sounds like he just wants a way to participate.

jdietrich 15y ago

Don't walk, run.