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Maybe I'm cynical, but I lost my trust in educational institutions when I realized how disconnected grades are from learning. Learning about people cheating did

by qntty 6y ago

Maybe I'm cynical, but I lost my trust in educational institutions when I realized how disconnected grades are from learning. Learning about people cheating didn't do anything to change my opinion. If anything, it made me hopeful to know that people seem to naturally resist participating in poorly designed institutions even if they don't share my bigger picture view of them.

pc86 6y ago
You say grades are disconnected from learning without provided any evidence (or even an anecdote for an example). I'm not saying you're wrong but some supporting evidence would be good as this wasn't my experience in undergrad and isn't my experience now.
- tmotwu 6y ago
  I went to a target school. Most reputable TAs and Professors I've met agree grades are mostly a scam. Historical issues with grade inflation or large curve disparities across semesters because departments force fixed grading distributions, devoid of any context. It makes it harder to design fair exams and homeworks. The only thing grades are good for are improvement indicators - not if you did well with understanding the material of the class you took. Some professors choose students to assist in classes based on how they improved from prerequisites, rather than if they got an A/B/C.
- Retric 6y ago
  The obvious example of cheating resulting in higher grades independent of effort or learning is kind of besides the point. Picking different professors will also result in better grades independent of effort or knowledge. One of my math teachers literally gave everyone that showed up to an upper level class an A, and said he wanted to cover more material rather than have a final. The most clear cut example of grades independent of learning is someone that knows the subject and is unable to test out of the class. In such cases they can get top scores without learning anything. If you’re arguing that they reflect having learned the material at some time. I knew people with significant time pressure like a full time job that knew the material very well, but simply aimed for a lower grade on assignments as a means of managing their time. Grading on a curve means you need to find something that separates A’s from B’s when everyone learns the material and that’s often just effort.
canjobear 6y ago
This isn't just any educational institution. It's the training ground for army officers, and one with a very high reputation. This isn't just someone with an easy degree getting all A's based on dubiously challenging coursework. These are officers who are supposed to be entrusted with command and people's lives.
calibas 6y ago
I think most people understand grades aren't purely a measure of how well you know a subject, but also related to how much your parents donated to the university, or how important you are to the football team. What should devastate people's trust in educational institutions is the relationship between Harvard and Epstein. We get to watch this university, whom I'm told is full of the world's smartest people, claim it was ignorant of what was really going on. Harvard gave a sex trafficker a security card and his own office while he paid them millions. Harvard faculty was even joining him at his parties, I find it hard to believe what he was doing was really a secret.
- impendia 6y ago
  Regarding grading: I am a professor at a large American state university where football is king. I have never been pressured to change a grade for the kinds of reasons you mention. I'm not saying that grading is perfect -- measuring what has been learned is hard, and there can be pressure not to be too harsh overall. But this sort of corruption is, in my observation, not widespread.
  - calibas 6y ago
    Have you ever failed a football player?
    - impendia 6y ago
      I have not, to my knowledge, ever had a football player in one of my classes.
      - calibas 6y ago
        Suppose you had an important football player in a class, and because of a grade you gave he missed a big game, do you believe there would be negative repercussions? If so, there's at least a little bit of pressure towards passing those students. I wouldn't even call it "corruption", just normal human bias that everyone is guilty of.
Rumudiez 6y ago
Ok, but do you go to school for the grades or to learn? Grades are like performance reviews. They might matter to your teacher/manager/school/employer, but they sure as hell don’t matter to me because I’m the judge of my own success.
hnracer 6y ago
I share your view. My strategy in university was to memorize as much as I could going into the exam and then garbage collect 1 day later and be left with nothing. This was an arrogant waste of time, but my priorities at that time were to simultaneously max(grades) and min(effort), with the end goal being a job, and my strategy optimally satisfied those goals. In hindsight I wish that things had been designed differently to prevent gaming the system in such a way, to save me from myself, but alas they were not (and still aren't).

by qntty 6y ago

pc86 6y ago

You say grades are disconnected from learning without provided any evidence (or even an anecdote for an example). I'm not saying you're wrong but some supporting evidence would be good as this wasn't my experience in undergrad and isn't my experience now.

tmotwu 6y ago
I went to a target school. Most reputable TAs and Professors I've met agree grades are mostly a scam. Historical issues with grade inflation or large curve disparities across semesters because departments force fixed grading distributions, devoid of any context. It makes it harder to design fair exams and homeworks. The only thing grades are good for are improvement indicators - not if you did well with understanding the material of the class you took. Some professors choose students to assist in classes based on how they improved from prerequisites, rather than if they got an A/B/C.
Retric 6y ago
The obvious example of cheating resulting in higher grades independent of effort or learning is kind of besides the point. Picking different professors will also result in better grades independent of effort or knowledge. One of my math teachers literally gave everyone that showed up to an upper level class an A, and said he wanted to cover more material rather than have a final. The most clear cut example of grades independent of learning is someone that knows the subject and is unable to test out of the class. In such cases they can get top scores without learning anything. If you’re arguing that they reflect having learned the material at some time. I knew people with significant time pressure like a full time job that knew the material very well, but simply aimed for a lower grade on assignments as a means of managing their time. Grading on a curve means you need to find something that separates A’s from B’s when everyone learns the material and that’s often just effort.

canjobear 6y ago

This isn't just any educational institution. It's the training ground for army officers, and one with a very high reputation. This isn't just someone with an easy degree getting all A's based on dubiously challenging coursework. These are officers who are supposed to be entrusted with command and people's lives.

calibas 6y ago

I think most people understand grades aren't purely a measure of how well you know a subject, but also related to how much your parents donated to the university, or how important you are to the football team. What should devastate people's trust in educational institutions is the relationship between Harvard and Epstein. We get to watch this university, whom I'm told is full of the world's smartest people, claim it was ignorant of what was really going on. Harvard gave a sex trafficker a security card and his own office while he paid them millions. Harvard faculty was even joining him at his parties, I find it hard to believe what he was doing was really a secret.

impendia 6y ago
Regarding grading: I am a professor at a large American state university where football is king. I have never been pressured to change a grade for the kinds of reasons you mention. I'm not saying that grading is perfect -- measuring what has been learned is hard, and there can be pressure not to be too harsh overall. But this sort of corruption is, in my observation, not widespread.
- calibas 6y ago
  Have you ever failed a football player?
  - impendia 6y ago
    I have not, to my knowledge, ever had a football player in one of my classes.
    - calibas 6y ago
      Suppose you had an important football player in a class, and because of a grade you gave he missed a big game, do you believe there would be negative repercussions? If so, there's at least a little bit of pressure towards passing those students. I wouldn't even call it "corruption", just normal human bias that everyone is guilty of.

Rumudiez 6y ago

Ok, but do you go to school for the grades or to learn? Grades are like performance reviews. They might matter to your teacher/manager/school/employer, but they sure as hell don’t matter to me because I’m the judge of my own success.

hnracer 6y ago

I share your view. My strategy in university was to memorize as much as I could going into the exam and then garbage collect 1 day later and be left with nothing. This was an arrogant waste of time, but my priorities at that time were to simultaneously max(grades) and min(effort), with the end goal being a job, and my strategy optimally satisfied those goals. In hindsight I wish that things had been designed differently to prevent gaming the system in such a way, to save me from myself, but alas they were not (and still aren't).