4 ms·

Why is this such a big deal?

djohnston 6y ago
Almost 70 officer candidates engaging in conduct unbecoming of an officer at one of the most famous schools in the country*.
- credit_guy 6y ago
  Why the asterisk? Among the military academies in the US, I think only Annapolis is anything close to the name recognition of West Point.
  - djohnston 6y ago
    I had originally written "world", but I have no idea what sort of international rep US military academies have. They are undeniably good engineering schools, but less accessible to int'l students.
resist_futility 6y ago
You generally don't want people that cheat, lie and can't pass calculus in charge of the largest military in the world
- adamnemecek 6y ago
  Idk, between this and bombing children in the Middle East, I feel like there are larger problems to address. Also US military is not the largest military in the world.
  - derwiki 6y ago
    Straw man? And yes not the largest by headcount but widely considered the most powerful military in the world.
    - adamnemecek 6y ago
      Lol, do you legitimately think that people in say China or Russia believe that?
      - confidantlake 6y ago
        Why is that relevant?
      - astura 6y ago
        Believing something doesn't make it true.
        adamnemecek 6y ago
        Right, but that also applies to the original claim I was refuting right?
        buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
        Why do you keep bringing up people's beliefs if you admit they are irrelevant? Debate GP with facts about the military if opinions are so untrustworthy.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Idk, between this and bombing children in the Middle East, I feel like there are larger problems to address. Do you think allowing more people who break clear explicit rules of conduct for immediate personal advantage into the military (and visibly doing so, so that you send the message that it is acceptable) will make those bigger problems better or worse? > Also US military is not the largest military in the world. By manpower? No. By virtually any capacity measure? Yes. Maybe by manpower to, once you account for the large degree to which military functions are contracted out (including armed combat roles in war zones) and add in all the contractors performing those functions.
    - adamnemecek 6y ago
      I think that the military has larger things to worry about as far as integrity. I think that cheating on exams won’t change anything as far as military goes. People in Russia and China really don’t think the US military is the most powerful military.
      - dragonwriter 6y ago
        > People in Russia and China really don’t think the US military is the most powerful military. I'm not sure what bearing this has on anything even if it is true, besides being a weirdly selective argumentum ad populum fallacy.
        adamnemecek 6y ago
        What I’m trying to say is that your opinion is not a universal truth.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        The existence of flat-earthers has no effect on the degree to which it is true that the Earth is, approximately, an oblate spheroid.
  - gabagool 6y ago
    True, there is no objective manner to determine the "largest" or "most powerful" military. However, via this listing of militaries by different types of equipment[1], the US leads in 8 of 14 categories. I'll admit I thought the US would lead in more categories, but this is the majority of listed criteria. If one adds in military size, it would become 8/15 (still over half). The US also leads in various military strength indices. For better or worse, the US is assumed to have the most powerful military in present day. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_military_equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_...
- derwiki 6y ago
  Tbh I’m not sure I care they “can’t” pass calculus (maybe they could with in person instruction?). But cheat and lie, yea that’s non-negotiable.
SteveGerencser 6y ago
Because trust in your officers is staggeringly important. Even more so when you are put into a combat position and rely on those same officers to lead and guide men and women who may die. Honor and integrity in the military should be one of the most important elements of that person's character. Add to that, if they can't be trusted in an academic setting where the consequences are a bad grade, how can you trust them in a situation where there are lives at stake?
- adamnemecek 6y ago
  US military is a bunch of cowards who are willing to sacrifice local civilians if that means decreasing a threat to themselves even by a tiny amount. Also the integrity and honor ship has sailed long time ago, there is nothing honorable or integral about militaries.
  - KLexpat 6y ago
    >local citizens US mil doesn't usually restrict itself to sacrificing local citizens. Any unarmed innocents will suffice to keep the dow going up
sizzzzlerz 6y ago
Seriously? Upon enrolling, they swore to uphold the honor code. They failed to do that. How can they be trusted in their duties as officers in the Army, where they also swear oaths about the protection and defense of the US, when they've shown a inability to maintain oaths.
- 5555624 6y ago
  Nor is it a surprise. Prospective cadets learn about the Honor Code as part of the application process. It's not like they report and find out about it on day one. (Although nominated and accepted, I chose not to attend West Point.)
mrtksn 6y ago
I will bite. I don't know the context in the USA but there was similar issue in Turkey that ended very badly. So in Turkey there is this islamic cleric, a charismatic figure who was a "Youtuber" before the internet. His organisation was spreading his message through VHS tapes and he gained substential following. Innocent enough, right? Well, the problem is that the guy was preaching about infiltrating institutions, "the capillaries" in his own words, to create a "golden generation" and to achieve that cheating, killing, destruction of lives was acceptable for greater good. The Turkish military was the primary target of the organisation and the military at one point began expelling people for being associated with this organisation. How they were getting in? First it was through legit ways: study for the exams. Later, those who get it keep their alliance with this organisation and did whatever they can to get more people in. At some point, they reached dominance in the admission process and some of the branches were recruiting from this organisation - exclusively. They were passing the exam questions to the organisation and the organisation got all their people in. They created an unofficial ranking scheme inside the military where officially highly ranking personel could be below the cafeteria guy. At some point they were everywhere that matters and were the unofficial partner of Erdogan up until they decided that they want it all and clashed with Erdogan. Erdogan won, then they attempted a coup. Erdogan won again. Crazy stuff, right? I wouldn't believe it up until the coup night when people dragged civilians associated with these people out of the tanks on live TV and CCTV footage of the airbase that bombed the parliament. On the CCTV, businessman known to be associated with this organisation was running around the base, checking the screens, talking to solders - he was clearly directing the air attacks that nigh. So yes, corruption in these institutions is a big deal. [0] : some CCTV footage from the airbase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLEOKnCcRNM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLEOKnCcRNM [1] : an article about the guy being sentenced for life in prison: https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/15-temmuz-darbe-girisimi/akinci-davasi-saniklari-cezasiz-kalmadi-fetonun-hava-kuvvetleri-imami-kemal-batmaz/2057678 https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/15-temmuz-darbe-girisimi/akinci-dav...
- adamnemecek 6y ago
  Right, because the US military is devoid of members who hold radical, fringe opinions.
Lendal 6y ago
If the people who will be in command of thousands of American soldiers and lethal weaponry across the globe are willing to lie, cheat, or cut corners to further their own career, that's not good for America or the world.
chiph 6y ago
Because troops may not follow an officer they don't trust and respect. When I was serving, I once came across a unit who didn't respect their commander. And the unit was pretty fucked up as a result. They weren't effective, there were whispered jokes about him, and people were showing up late & leaving early. If we had gone to war, there was a good chance that many unit members would have found ways to avoid serving under him. His boss at the Wing/Group level should have pulled his ticket and replaced him. The phrase commonly used for this is "Loss of trust and confidence in their ability to lead".

Almost 70 officer candidates engaging in conduct unbecoming of an officer at one of the most famous schools in the country*.

credit_guy 6y ago
Why the asterisk? Among the military academies in the US, I think only Annapolis is anything close to the name recognition of West Point.
- djohnston 6y ago
  I had originally written "world", but I have no idea what sort of international rep US military academies have. They are undeniably good engineering schools, but less accessible to int'l students.

resist_futility 6y ago

You generally don't want people that cheat, lie and can't pass calculus in charge of the largest military in the world

adamnemecek 6y ago
Idk, between this and bombing children in the Middle East, I feel like there are larger problems to address. Also US military is not the largest military in the world.
- derwiki 6y ago
  Straw man? And yes not the largest by headcount but widely considered the most powerful military in the world.
  - adamnemecek 6y ago
    Lol, do you legitimately think that people in say China or Russia believe that?
    - confidantlake 6y ago
      Why is that relevant?
    - astura 6y ago
      Believing something doesn't make it true.
      - adamnemecek 6y ago
        Right, but that also applies to the original claim I was refuting right?
        buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
        Why do you keep bringing up people's beliefs if you admit they are irrelevant? Debate GP with facts about the military if opinions are so untrustworthy.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Idk, between this and bombing children in the Middle East, I feel like there are larger problems to address. Do you think allowing more people who break clear explicit rules of conduct for immediate personal advantage into the military (and visibly doing so, so that you send the message that it is acceptable) will make those bigger problems better or worse? > Also US military is not the largest military in the world. By manpower? No. By virtually any capacity measure? Yes. Maybe by manpower to, once you account for the large degree to which military functions are contracted out (including armed combat roles in war zones) and add in all the contractors performing those functions.
  - adamnemecek 6y ago
    I think that the military has larger things to worry about as far as integrity. I think that cheating on exams won’t change anything as far as military goes. People in Russia and China really don’t think the US military is the most powerful military.
    - dragonwriter 6y ago
      > People in Russia and China really don’t think the US military is the most powerful military. I'm not sure what bearing this has on anything even if it is true, besides being a weirdly selective argumentum ad populum fallacy.
      - adamnemecek 6y ago
        What I’m trying to say is that your opinion is not a universal truth.
        dragonwriter 6y ago
        The existence of flat-earthers has no effect on the degree to which it is true that the Earth is, approximately, an oblate spheroid.
- gabagool 6y ago
  True, there is no objective manner to determine the "largest" or "most powerful" military. However, via this listing of militaries by different types of equipment[1], the US leads in 8 of 14 categories. I'll admit I thought the US would lead in more categories, but this is the majority of listed criteria. If one adds in military size, it would become 8/15 (still over half). The US also leads in various military strength indices. For better or worse, the US is assumed to have the most powerful military in present day. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_military_equipment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_level_of_...
derwiki 6y ago
Tbh I’m not sure I care they “can’t” pass calculus (maybe they could with in person instruction?). But cheat and lie, yea that’s non-negotiable.

SteveGerencser 6y ago

Because trust in your officers is staggeringly important. Even more so when you are put into a combat position and rely on those same officers to lead and guide men and women who may die. Honor and integrity in the military should be one of the most important elements of that person's character. Add to that, if they can't be trusted in an academic setting where the consequences are a bad grade, how can you trust them in a situation where there are lives at stake?

adamnemecek 6y ago
US military is a bunch of cowards who are willing to sacrifice local civilians if that means decreasing a threat to themselves even by a tiny amount. Also the integrity and honor ship has sailed long time ago, there is nothing honorable or integral about militaries.
- KLexpat 6y ago
  >local citizens US mil doesn't usually restrict itself to sacrificing local citizens. Any unarmed innocents will suffice to keep the dow going up

sizzzzlerz 6y ago

Seriously? Upon enrolling, they swore to uphold the honor code. They failed to do that. How can they be trusted in their duties as officers in the Army, where they also swear oaths about the protection and defense of the US, when they've shown a inability to maintain oaths.

5555624 6y ago
Nor is it a surprise. Prospective cadets learn about the Honor Code as part of the application process. It's not like they report and find out about it on day one. (Although nominated and accepted, I chose not to attend West Point.)

mrtksn 6y ago

I will bite. I don't know the context in the USA but there was similar issue in Turkey that ended very badly. So in Turkey there is this islamic cleric, a charismatic figure who was a "Youtuber" before the internet. His organisation was spreading his message through VHS tapes and he gained substential following. Innocent enough, right? Well, the problem is that the guy was preaching about infiltrating institutions, "the capillaries" in his own words, to create a "golden generation" and to achieve that cheating, killing, destruction of lives was acceptable for greater good. The Turkish military was the primary target of the organisation and the military at one point began expelling people for being associated with this organisation. How they were getting in? First it was through legit ways: study for the exams. Later, those who get it keep their alliance with this organisation and did whatever they can to get more people in. At some point, they reached dominance in the admission process and some of the branches were recruiting from this organisation - exclusively. They were passing the exam questions to the organisation and the organisation got all their people in. They created an unofficial ranking scheme inside the military where officially highly ranking personel could be below the cafeteria guy. At some point they were everywhere that matters and were the unofficial partner of Erdogan up until they decided that they want it all and clashed with Erdogan. Erdogan won, then they attempted a coup. Erdogan won again. Crazy stuff, right? I wouldn't believe it up until the coup night when people dragged civilians associated with these people out of the tanks on live TV and CCTV footage of the airbase that bombed the parliament. On the CCTV, businessman known to be associated with this organisation was running around the base, checking the screens, talking to solders - he was clearly directing the air attacks that nigh. So yes, corruption in these institutions is a big deal. [0] : some CCTV footage from the airbase: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLEOKnCcRNM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLEOKnCcRNM [1] : an article about the guy being sentenced for life in prison: https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/15-temmuz-darbe-girisimi/akinci-davasi-saniklari-cezasiz-kalmadi-fetonun-hava-kuvvetleri-imami-kemal-batmaz/2057678 https://www.aa.com.tr/tr/15-temmuz-darbe-girisimi/akinci-dav...

adamnemecek 6y ago
Right, because the US military is devoid of members who hold radical, fringe opinions.

Lendal 6y ago

If the people who will be in command of thousands of American soldiers and lethal weaponry across the globe are willing to lie, cheat, or cut corners to further their own career, that's not good for America or the world.

chiph 6y ago

Because troops may not follow an officer they don't trust and respect. When I was serving, I once came across a unit who didn't respect their commander. And the unit was pretty fucked up as a result. They weren't effective, there were whispered jokes about him, and people were showing up late & leaving early. If we had gone to war, there was a good chance that many unit members would have found ways to avoid serving under him. His boss at the Wing/Group level should have pulled his ticket and replaced him. The phrase commonly used for this is "Loss of trust and confidence in their ability to lead".