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I write drivers for phones at Google. Am I evil? Is this worthy of social outcast? Criticise big tech, but please don't let perfectly rational arguments turn

I write drivers for phones at Google. Am I evil? Is this worthy of social outcast? Criticise big tech, but please don't let perfectly rational arguments turn into rhetoric.

mbrumlow 6y ago
Side note. Are there any good resources for learning this? I have done driver code in the past, a virtual block device that inteterfaced with the block layer. But I want to go deeper. And understand how the code meets the metal.
- mondoshawan 6y ago
  Linux kernel source is a good start. Read up on just about everything in thr kernel docs on I2C, SPI, and regsets. Read datasheets, play around with dev boards. There's no manul for it, really -- its close to old school software engineering on old machines. You have to learn the raw memory layouts, interfaces and some level of electronics theory, and wrestle with datasheets in the start. Once you've figured out how a peripheral does its work, then you start looking at kernel drivers. For Android, drivers are a split thing: you have to write the kernel driver, then write a user space component called the HAL backend. There's a bit more documentation on that in thr AOSP tree, but not a whole lot. Basically, you have to learn by doing. Find a chip you want to use in Android, and give it a try on a PandaBoard or some other SBC that can run it.
  - mbrumlow 6y ago
    Thanks for taking the time to reply. Its good to know that there is no quick path to this and simply need to sit down and understand the code, and play around with real hardware.
Nextgrid 6y ago
If the phone is going to have spyware (Android with the Google proprietary services), then maybe?
ocdtrekkie 6y ago
With the amount of human rights abuses, criminal activity, worker harm, and sexual harassment that's been disclosed about Google execs over the last several years, isn't it evil to make those people richer? There isn't a single good guy at the top of Google. How can working there in 2020 not be a red flag to future employers that you stayed when you should've known better? Don't get me wrong, there are workers trapped by visa policies or people who honestly lack the job mobility, but if you do legitimately have a choice where you work, doesn't it start to say something about you after a while? I do honestly hesitate to vilify a large class of people solely based on employment, but I don't think it's an entirely unwarranted question: Can you be a good person if you choose to further the agenda of evil? You said you "write drivers for phones". That sounds innocent enough, and I'm sure it's interesting work. But if that's Android, we should consider that Android will likely be found to have been built upon a stolen platform. It was created by a man who regularly sexually harassed employees, and whom Google paid a $90 million bonus after they knew that. The guys who still have a controlling interest in Google have all also sexually harassed employees, and continue to profit from Android today. Android has no meaningful competition[1]. Android generally is provided with terms that extend and reinforce Google's monopoly, via a contract called the MADA. Every phone manufacturer has to agree to it, and it requires including and showcasing other Google apps. It's operated kinda like a cartel, and Google has threatened to banish manufacturers for things like, working with other search engines, web browsers, or location providers. Hilariously, Google has tried to present this cartel as some sort of open "alliance"... just an alliance where they are in charge and anyone who doesn't comply with their decisions is out of business. Android was built and serves to protect Google's interest on mobile platforms. If location services is enabled, Google collects the location of nearly everyone on earth every five minutes. They've been caught regularly lying or obscuring how to disable this. Google has interfered with multiple attempts to protect user privacy on their platform, and while other web browsers have moved to block tracking by ad networks, Google engaged in marketing campaigns on how blocking tracking allegedly harmed user privacy. Isn't working on this a political act? Can we separate pure engineering from the goals it furthers? [1] iOS is not available to be licensed by manufacturers for use in phones. Android's only actual competitors are like Tizen, Sailfish, and maybe a couple flavors of Linux that work on phones.
- 6y ago
3131s 6y ago
> Is this worthy of social outcast? Yes, it is. Go do something worthwhile with your life.
turtleturtle 6y ago
Ignore the noise. Big players in the space will always draw criticism. There's a huge difference between an organization and an individual. There's value in what you do, and I appreciate your work.
- throwaway3699 6y ago
  I get that -- just not happy about being compared to war criminals. And annoyingly there are real conversations to be had on the topic of Big Tech being too big or too powerful, which are hard with all the rhetoric in the way.
LandR 6y ago
You know the potential harm the company you choose to work for, and you've decided to look past that for a presumably large salary. It's no different to working for a chemical company you knlw are dumping toxic sludge into the environment then saying but i only work in the label printing department. You probably aren't evil, but you have blood on your hands and don't bd surprised if people judge you for that.
dkersten 6y ago
Presumably you and most of us here on HN have plenty of options regarding where we work, so I would say that if you work for a questionable company, then yes, you are, indeed, questionable. I wouldn't say evil exactly, but I certainly do question your ethics and morals a bit. Now, its important to note that I do not know your personal circumstances, so I wouldn't go out of my way to tell you that you made bad choices or anything like that, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't silently (ok not so silently now, but you did ask) question your choices at least a little bit. At the end of the day, only you can know how moral you are as a person, but if writing drivers helps evil company maintain its evil, then... > Is this worthy of social outcast? Of course not, we're all humans and unless you directly do evil acts, I wouldn't say you should be socially outcast for it. But people will form opinions based on who you work for.

I write drivers for phones at Google. Am I evil? Is this worthy of social outcast? Criticise big tech, but please don't let perfectly rational arguments turn into rhetoric.

mbrumlow 6y ago

Side note. Are there any good resources for learning this? I have done driver code in the past, a virtual block device that inteterfaced with the block layer. But I want to go deeper. And understand how the code meets the metal.

mondoshawan 6y ago
Linux kernel source is a good start. Read up on just about everything in thr kernel docs on I2C, SPI, and regsets. Read datasheets, play around with dev boards. There's no manul for it, really -- its close to old school software engineering on old machines. You have to learn the raw memory layouts, interfaces and some level of electronics theory, and wrestle with datasheets in the start. Once you've figured out how a peripheral does its work, then you start looking at kernel drivers. For Android, drivers are a split thing: you have to write the kernel driver, then write a user space component called the HAL backend. There's a bit more documentation on that in thr AOSP tree, but not a whole lot. Basically, you have to learn by doing. Find a chip you want to use in Android, and give it a try on a PandaBoard or some other SBC that can run it.
- mbrumlow 6y ago
  Thanks for taking the time to reply. Its good to know that there is no quick path to this and simply need to sit down and understand the code, and play around with real hardware.

Nextgrid 6y ago

If the phone is going to have spyware (Android with the Google proprietary services), then maybe?

ocdtrekkie 6y ago

With the amount of human rights abuses, criminal activity, worker harm, and sexual harassment that's been disclosed about Google execs over the last several years, isn't it evil to make those people richer? There isn't a single good guy at the top of Google. How can working there in 2020 not be a red flag to future employers that you stayed when you should've known better? Don't get me wrong, there are workers trapped by visa policies or people who honestly lack the job mobility, but if you do legitimately have a choice where you work, doesn't it start to say something about you after a while? I do honestly hesitate to vilify a large class of people solely based on employment, but I don't think it's an entirely unwarranted question: Can you be a good person if you choose to further the agenda of evil? You said you "write drivers for phones". That sounds innocent enough, and I'm sure it's interesting work. But if that's Android, we should consider that Android will likely be found to have been built upon a stolen platform. It was created by a man who regularly sexually harassed employees, and whom Google paid a $90 million bonus after they knew that. The guys who still have a controlling interest in Google have all also sexually harassed employees, and continue to profit from Android today. Android has no meaningful competition[1]. Android generally is provided with terms that extend and reinforce Google's monopoly, via a contract called the MADA. Every phone manufacturer has to agree to it, and it requires including and showcasing other Google apps. It's operated kinda like a cartel, and Google has threatened to banish manufacturers for things like, working with other search engines, web browsers, or location providers. Hilariously, Google has tried to present this cartel as some sort of open "alliance"... just an alliance where they are in charge and anyone who doesn't comply with their decisions is out of business. Android was built and serves to protect Google's interest on mobile platforms. If location services is enabled, Google collects the location of nearly everyone on earth every five minutes. They've been caught regularly lying or obscuring how to disable this. Google has interfered with multiple attempts to protect user privacy on their platform, and while other web browsers have moved to block tracking by ad networks, Google engaged in marketing campaigns on how blocking tracking allegedly harmed user privacy. Isn't working on this a political act? Can we separate pure engineering from the goals it furthers? [1] iOS is not available to be licensed by manufacturers for use in phones. Android's only actual competitors are like Tizen, Sailfish, and maybe a couple flavors of Linux that work on phones.

6y ago

3131s 6y ago

> Is this worthy of social outcast? Yes, it is. Go do something worthwhile with your life.

turtleturtle 6y ago

Ignore the noise. Big players in the space will always draw criticism. There's a huge difference between an organization and an individual. There's value in what you do, and I appreciate your work.

throwaway3699 6y ago
I get that -- just not happy about being compared to war criminals. And annoyingly there are real conversations to be had on the topic of Big Tech being too big or too powerful, which are hard with all the rhetoric in the way.

LandR 6y ago

You know the potential harm the company you choose to work for, and you've decided to look past that for a presumably large salary. It's no different to working for a chemical company you knlw are dumping toxic sludge into the environment then saying but i only work in the label printing department. You probably aren't evil, but you have blood on your hands and don't bd surprised if people judge you for that.

dkersten 6y ago

Presumably you and most of us here on HN have plenty of options regarding where we work, so I would say that if you work for a questionable company, then yes, you are, indeed, questionable. I wouldn't say evil exactly, but I certainly do question your ethics and morals a bit. Now, its important to note that I do not know your personal circumstances, so I wouldn't go out of my way to tell you that you made bad choices or anything like that, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't silently (ok not so silently now, but you did ask) question your choices at least a little bit. At the end of the day, only you can know how moral you are as a person, but if writing drivers helps evil company maintain its evil, then... > Is this worthy of social outcast? Of course not, we're all humans and unless you directly do evil acts, I wouldn't say you should be socially outcast for it. But people will form opinions based on who you work for.