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There were quite a few other factors that led to the decline of streetcars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy#Other_factors http
by twblalock 6y ago
There were quite a few other factors that led to the decline of streetcars: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_conspiracy#Other_factors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_streetcar_consp...
One of the biggest is that people actually like living in suburbs, and they could afford to do so after WWII.
The promise of the suburbs is a detached house, with some private outdoor space like a back yard, in a quiet area: essentially what the rich had always preferred and been able to afford. That lifestyle became broadly available to the middle classes after WWII. It's hard to blame people for wanting that.
People still like living in suburbs. They still like owning cars. They still vote against new transit projects for a lot of reasons, but the biggest reason is that they don't want to pay taxes to support a system they would not use themselves.
So I just don't buy the idea that the National City Lines conspiracy caused our current automotive culture. I think we would have ended up with the same car culture anyway, because huge numbers of people wanted to live in the suburbs.
- jacobolus 6y agoThey could afford to move to suburbs because the federal government subsidized the hell out of it at the expense of people living in cities.
- teloli 6y agoOh man, am I glad to be European. Walk to the bar, cycle to work, take the tram if it rains. American cities built for cars are just so sad.
- RandallBrown 6y agoI can do that in my American city too.
- dijit 6y agoOh! Which one? I can only think of NYC but that’s really inhospitable to cyclists too. :/
- RandallBrown 6y agoSeattle. I have 3 major grocery stores (Safeway, QFC, Target) within 15 minutes walking from me. And at least 20 bars and restaurants within the same distance. Public transportation to downtown takes about 35 minutes, which isn't great, but it's okay. Uber works well if you need to be faster.
- owowow 6y agoBallard is pretty isolated, constrained by the Ballard Bridge or going over to Fremont to get to Downtown. Bike access is poor, either risking death on the sidewalks of the Ballard Bridge, taking the lane on the bridge or doing a large detour to Fremont. Wedgewood, Fremont, Queen Anne & Freelard all successfully resisted the mass redevelopment that Ballard has seen, compared to 15 years ago Ballard looks completely different while the aforementioned neighborhoods have not seen that same level of mass demolition.
- RandallBrown 6y agoNot too surprising you guessed it was Ballard. Depending on where you live and where you're going, crossing the locks is a great way to bike downtown. Also sometimes the Fremont bridge route is going to be shorter. I hate riding my bike over the Ballard bridge, but I'm not sure I'd call riding on it "risking death". Bike access within Ballard is pretty great since the hills are a bit more manageable than in other parts of the city. All that aside, it's pretty easy to live in Seattle and not have a car, being able to walk to groceries, bars, restaurants, parks, etc.
- loeg 6y agoThe Locks aren't great because cyclists must dismount for the entire length of the federal facility. This is a nuisance for platform pedals and conventional shoes and obnoxious for clipless pedals and cleated shoes. I would highly encourage avoiding the Ballard Bridge. IMO it's very dangerous. Walkability in Ballard is pretty good. We're within 15 minutes walking distance of QFC and the bar/restaurant area south of Market. That said, I prefer to drive to the grocery store so I can go infrequently and buy more at once.
- pydry 6y agoAlso nice that corporations don't run my government mainly for their own benefit.
- Razengan 6y agoSome Japanese cities seem to be pretty good for that too. Apparently even very young children can safely take the bus, train or bike to school by themselves.
- dcolkitt 6y agoExcept, the difference is mostly a stereotype that isn't held up by the data. In France, 70% of commuters travel by car and only 3% by cycling.[1] That's less car-centric than America for sure. But Americans have a misguided notion that all Europeans live in quaint pedestrian-friendly town centers that look like Prague or Copenhagen. Mostly because we tend to spend our European tourism in the dense centers of the capital cities. [1] https://www.transportenvironment.org/news/increase-paris-cycle-lanes-leads-dramatic-rise-bike-commuting https://www.transportenvironment.org/news/increase-paris-cyc...
- adrianN 6y agoPeople still commute by car in Europe because it's often much faster than public transport, but generally Europeans were more successful in preventing sprawl wastelands where you can't survive without a car. In the US there are many places where the next supermarket is twenty minutes by car away and literally impossible to reach on a bike without getting run over. In contrast, even in the smallest town I've lived in, with just 20k residents, there where three supermarkets and two specialty stores in walking distance.
- Jommi 6y agoThis is for France as a whole, not Paris. Ofc the figures will be majority car when you take a whole country into account instead of a city/metro area.
- ben_w 6y agoFrance != Paris. Considering only the cities, there is a massive difference between the majority of European cities I’ve visited and all US cities I’ve visited — the worst in Europe is about the equal of the best in America (e.g. Bay Area, NYC), to the extent that the only time I’ve owned a car was a 2-week period when my ex moved out of the country and wanted me to sell hers on her behalf. My worst pedestrian experience was Salt Lake City, where the footpaths stopped suddenly and without apparent reason in the middle of the residential area I was staying in. I had to backtrack and guess a lot. Sure, the sudden absence of footpaths can happen in Europe too (I’ve seen it in Λάρνακα, Luxembourg, and Hochstadt, though never to the same extent), but for the most part even tiny villages in Europe have better public transport and pedestrian access than the various American cities I’ve visited.
- RobRivera 6y agoI love my kansas city sprawl. It's not for everyone, but it certainty isn't sad in my eyes, or that of my friends.
- cambalache 6y agoBut it is pretty sad for the rest of the world. In Latin-America our oldest cities are European-style cities, totally walkable. The new developments (say last 50-60) are mostly American-style suburban hell.
- RobRivera 6y agoI think you are missing my point. Beauty is in the eye if the beholder
- tolbish 6y agoDid you grow up with suburban car culture? How do you know your frame of reference isn't biased?
- waterhouse 6y agoDid you grow up without it? Are you biased as a result of that? Bias is practically impossible to eliminate here. (You could try to find people who moved from one place to another, and ideally limit it to those whose reason for moving had nothing to do with their preferences... and poll them. I don't know how possible that is. It likely also makes a difference at what age they moved.)
- pdpi 6y agoI grew up in a car-centric country with fairly poor public transport, and have since moved to London. Here it’s genuinely faster to take public transport to most places than it is to drive. I occasionally wish I had a car (say for a weekend getaway) but it’s rare enough that I’m happy to live with rentals for those occasions.
- tomxor 6y agoI've never heard anyone self identify as "European" before, do you not feel a stronger personal identity to your own country? Or is it a "in the context of HN and the US affect"?
- memsom 6y agoIt's quite a common thing. I would identify as a European too. UK is about to leave the EU, but UK is still in the European continent. Some of my fellow countrymen are not so sure, but for me, I feel more European than not.
- pelliphant 6y agoOn the internet I often identify myself as "European". The reason is usually because americans seem to assume that everyone is an american, so it is to clarify that I have a non-american perspective.
- teloli 6y agoAh yeah, it's just in this context. While I'd never introduce myself by saying "hi, I'm from Europe", I feel that there are more similarities than differences between EU countries in terms of public transport, healthcare, mass shootings, education, etc. compared to the US, and I feel very privileged to be born on the right side of the Atlantic. :)
- throw0101a 6y ago> The promise of the suburbs is a detached house, with some private outdoor space like a back yard, in a quiet area: essentially what the rich had always preferred and been able to afford. You can do that and still have density. Things were built like that pre-WW2; see street view of this Toronto, Canada neighbourhood: * https://www.google.com/maps/place/150+Westminster+Ave,+Toronto,+ON+M6R+1N7/ https://www.google.com/maps/place/150+Westminster+Ave,+Toron... Those houses (actually land) are very expensive now, but that's because urban living is now cool again. Up until the late-1990s they were quite affordable because all the Cool Kids wanted to live in the suburbs: downtown was mostly for immigrants post-WW2. There's a bus line to the west of there (Parkside), a streetcar line to the east (Roncesvalles), and both of those connect to a subway line (Bloor). And one doesn't have to give up their car: it simply becomes optional for day-to-day stuff instead of being a necessity. There's no reason why post-War suburbs couldn't have been built this way. The above neighbourhood was a suburb of Toronto and folks commuted via streetcar "to the city". For slightly smaller sized homes, but still with backyards and laneway garages, see the next street over: * https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+ON https://www.google.com/maps/place/50+Geoffrey+St,+Toronto,+O...
- BXLE_1-1-BitIs1 6y agoPost WWII bylaws mandated super wide streets and wide separation between houses, ostensibly for fire protection. I spent Grade 6 through 13 (Ontario prolonged the torture) in a new build Toronto suburb. Virtually no transit to speak of and the nearest bus stop a twenty minute walk away, followed by nearly an hour to get downtown. Cycling was faster - still is,even with decades of transit improvements. After high school I moved to the inner city and stayed clear of the suburbs. Today I'm in a walkable century old dense neighborhood in a small regional center, but have to drive to get groceries. The car can stay parked for a week.
- greyhair 6y agoOther than commuting, and grocery shopping, my car also stays parked. My wife and I only looked at small urban areas to live (we both lived urban when we met). I have telecommuted through COVID, and in the last year, I have only put 3500 miles on my car (now fourteen years old), and that includes three months of commuting before we went 100% on-line.
- AshWolfy 6y agoThey could only afford to do so because the government subsidized it, at the behest of car companies. id check out strong towns research on how suburbs are unsustainable
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- specialist 6y agoThe first suburb was Long Island. Mass transit was prohibited. Commuters had no choice but to drive. They hated it. They still hate it. The Power Broker, Robert Caro