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It’s a minor crime which people of color tend to be disproportionately cited for.

by rafram 6y ago

jimbob45 6y ago
Isn’t the real causation here that they’re lower class? I would imagine high-class blacks don’t often get ticketed for jaywalking. Lower-class people tend to walk more for reasons related to expensive car maintenance. Are blacks more often lower-class? Sure, but that’s a different issue entirely.
- LordDragonfang 6y ago
  While that's interesting conjecture, it doesn't bear out in reality in this case. From an article linked elsewhere in this chain[1]: >From Jan. 1 to March 31, the NYPD wrote 80 tickets for illegal crossing — less than one a day in a city of more than eight million people — and only one went to a person identified in police logs as “white.” So unless you think the "lower class" is 98% people of color, it's clear that the bias here is race-based, not inherent in the population. [1] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/05/07/nypds-racial-bias-in-jaywalking-tickets-continues-into-2020/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/05/07/nypds-racial-bias-in-...
  - jimbob45 6y ago
    Right but we have no way of knowing how many walkers were blacks, how many black and white walkers actually jaywalked, and how many walkers of each race got let off on warnings. It’s a nice talking point, I’ll grant you, but it won’t hold up to scrutiny on HN.
    - LordDragonfang 6y ago
      >how many black and white walkers actually jaywalked Are you seriously proposing that 98% people of color could be a representative sample of jaywalkers, or are you a bad troll? That pretty clearly shows a bias in the level of policing.
      - jimbob45 6y ago
        Drawing conclusions with incomplete information is irresponsible, no matter how good the intentions.
        nobody9999 6y ago
        You have incomplete information. As I said, all you have to do is spend an hour (or even ten minutes) in midtown Manahattan to see that everyone jaywalks all the time in NYC.
    - nobody9999 6y ago
      I hate to break it to you, but in NYC, nearly everyone, regardless of ethnicity or melanin content, jaywalks. In fact, we don't call it jaywalking, we call it "crossing the street." And the fact that out of 8.5 million people, only 80 were cited and 79 of those were people of color (and all 80 male), it's not only obvious that such citations are motivated by something other than "routine" law enforcement, but it's clearly just a trumped up charge to stop someone they wanted to stop anyway. Spend an hour in midtown Manhattan and you'll see that's absolutely the case.
- klyrs 6y ago
  It would be foolish to deny that stratification of classes is not reinforced by selective enforcement. However, cases such as Henry Louis Gates's arrest show that even the rich are not immune to racial profiling.
- aggronn 6y ago
  Its not a different issue entirely. Saying that is wrong and its harmful. Our "class system" is defined by the deliberately racist history from which it is derived. Communities of color are not disproportionately poor (and visa versa) by misfortune, random chance, or defect, but by several hundred years of cruel oppression and discrimination. Its factually and morally wrong to promote an idea that laws which predominantly target the poor are not also disproportionately targeting PoC, or that poverty in america and racism in america are "different issue(s) entirely". > All but one of the jaywalking tickets issued by NYPD cops in the first quarter of this year went to blacks or Hispanics https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/05/07/nypds-racial-bias-in-jaywalking-tickets-continues-into-2020/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/05/07/nypds-racial-bias-in-...
xwdv 6y ago
First off, you don’t really know if jaywalking is proportionally distributed across all races to say people of color are disproportionately targeted. Healthy higher net worth individuals are less likely to jaywalk. Lower income and poorly educated individuals, which often are minorities, are more likely to risk their life through jaywalking daily, and thus raise their chances of being cited. Edit: To the downvoters, think before you fire off that digital middle finger.
nickff 6y ago
It looks like non-hispanic whites have much lower rates of pedestrian deaths than other demographics, this indicates that other groups are likely walking in riskier areas, or in more dangerous ways, and may explain some of the 'disparity in ticketing'. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6939a7.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6939a7.htm
- maxmorlocke 6y ago
  Quick check in NYC shows that there were 1.7 deaths / 100K for black folks and 1.8 for white folks between 2012 and 2014. Given the urban/suburban breakdown by race, I'd be inclined to limit the geography to not include, say... Wyoming. Comparing NYC is also valuable given the variance in enforcement of jaywalking along racial lines that we explicitly know about thanks to their open data policies. https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/epi/databrief86.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/epi/databrief8...
- 8note 6y ago
  Walking in riskier areas you say? I wonder how that happens... It wouldn't have anything to do with building highways through non white neighborhoods, would it?

It’s a minor crime which people of color tend to be disproportionately cited for.

by rafram 6y ago

It’s a minor crime which people of color tend to be disproportionately cited for.

Isn’t the real causation here that they’re lower class? I would imagine high-class blacks don’t often get ticketed for jaywalking. Lower-class people tend to walk more for reasons related to expensive car maintenance. Are blacks more often lower-class? Sure, but that’s a different issue entirely.

LordDragonfang 6y ago
While that's interesting conjecture, it doesn't bear out in reality in this case. From an article linked elsewhere in this chain[1]: >From Jan. 1 to March 31, the NYPD wrote 80 tickets for illegal crossing — less than one a day in a city of more than eight million people — and only one went to a person identified in police logs as “white.” So unless you think the "lower class" is 98% people of color, it's clear that the bias here is race-based, not inherent in the population. [1] https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/05/07/nypds-racial-bias-in-jaywalking-tickets-continues-into-2020/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/05/07/nypds-racial-bias-in-...
- jimbob45 6y ago
  Right but we have no way of knowing how many walkers were blacks, how many black and white walkers actually jaywalked, and how many walkers of each race got let off on warnings. It’s a nice talking point, I’ll grant you, but it won’t hold up to scrutiny on HN.
  - LordDragonfang 6y ago
    >how many black and white walkers actually jaywalked Are you seriously proposing that 98% people of color could be a representative sample of jaywalkers, or are you a bad troll? That pretty clearly shows a bias in the level of policing.
    - jimbob45 6y ago
      Drawing conclusions with incomplete information is irresponsible, no matter how good the intentions.
      - nobody9999 6y ago
        You have incomplete information. As I said, all you have to do is spend an hour (or even ten minutes) in midtown Manahattan to see that everyone jaywalks all the time in NYC.
  - nobody9999 6y ago
    I hate to break it to you, but in NYC, nearly everyone, regardless of ethnicity or melanin content, jaywalks. In fact, we don't call it jaywalking, we call it "crossing the street." And the fact that out of 8.5 million people, only 80 were cited and 79 of those were people of color (and all 80 male), it's not only obvious that such citations are motivated by something other than "routine" law enforcement, but it's clearly just a trumped up charge to stop someone they wanted to stop anyway. Spend an hour in midtown Manhattan and you'll see that's absolutely the case.
klyrs 6y ago
It would be foolish to deny that stratification of classes is not reinforced by selective enforcement. However, cases such as Henry Louis Gates's arrest show that even the rich are not immune to racial profiling.
aggronn 6y ago
Its not a different issue entirely. Saying that is wrong and its harmful. Our "class system" is defined by the deliberately racist history from which it is derived. Communities of color are not disproportionately poor (and visa versa) by misfortune, random chance, or defect, but by several hundred years of cruel oppression and discrimination. Its factually and morally wrong to promote an idea that laws which predominantly target the poor are not also disproportionately targeting PoC, or that poverty in america and racism in america are "different issue(s) entirely". > All but one of the jaywalking tickets issued by NYPD cops in the first quarter of this year went to blacks or Hispanics https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/05/07/nypds-racial-bias-in-jaywalking-tickets-continues-into-2020/ https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2020/05/07/nypds-racial-bias-in-...

xwdv 6y ago

First off, you don’t really know if jaywalking is proportionally distributed across all races to say people of color are disproportionately targeted. Healthy higher net worth individuals are less likely to jaywalk. Lower income and poorly educated individuals, which often are minorities, are more likely to risk their life through jaywalking daily, and thus raise their chances of being cited. Edit: To the downvoters, think before you fire off that digital middle finger.

nickff 6y ago

It looks like non-hispanic whites have much lower rates of pedestrian deaths than other demographics, this indicates that other groups are likely walking in riskier areas, or in more dangerous ways, and may explain some of the 'disparity in ticketing'. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6939a7.htm https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6939a7.htm

maxmorlocke 6y ago
Quick check in NYC shows that there were 1.7 deaths / 100K for black folks and 1.8 for white folks between 2012 and 2014. Given the urban/suburban breakdown by race, I'd be inclined to limit the geography to not include, say... Wyoming. Comparing NYC is also valuable given the variance in enforcement of jaywalking along racial lines that we explicitly know about thanks to their open data policies. https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/epi/databrief86.pdf https://www1.nyc.gov/assets/doh/downloads/pdf/epi/databrief8...
8note 6y ago
Walking in riskier areas you say? I wonder how that happens... It wouldn't have anything to do with building highways through non white neighborhoods, would it?