6 ms·

Personally I've never been told to pay up before receiving treatment at a hospital. Especially when I arrive there unconscious. And Herb Cohen would say once yo

Personally I've never been told to pay up before receiving treatment at a hospital. Especially when I arrive there unconscious. And Herb Cohen would say once you've received the service, you're actually in a great negotiating position. People actually negotiate hospital bills all the time. Especially in those crazy stories you hear about. And you need a citation for your claim about when free markets do and don't work.

arcticbull 6y ago
> Personally I've never been told to pay up before receiving treatment at a hospital. Of course you have. The first thing you did when you walked in was hand them your ID and coverage info. You think hospitals operate on the honor system? As a Canadian I've never been asked to pay up before or after receiving treatment [edit: at the point of care]. And before you jump into taxation, Canadians pay less per capita in taxes than Americans ($13K vs $14K), and that's before you factor in the $600 per month in private tax you directly (or indirectly via employer) have to pay your insurers. > Especially when I arrive there unconscious. You either have insurance or you're driven into Chapter 11. Further I suspect this is not due to good will but rather government intervention. > And Herb Cohen would say once you've received the service, you're actually in a great negotiating position. The debt was incurred once the service was rendered, and you are now liable. 66.5% of all bankruptcies in the US are medical -- are they just bad negotiators? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make but it's not in good faith. > People actually negotiate hospital bills all the time. Especially in those crazy stories you hear about. That sounds the worst. > And you need a citation for your claim about when free markets do and don't work. Voluntary contractual exchange is one of the undisputed key pillars to a free market economy. If you're being told you will die without the service it is a coercive exchange and therefore violates one of the key tenets. [1] If I hold a gun to your head and tell you to buy my oranges for $1000 or I kill you, is the free market price of oranges $1000? If I tell you that you have cancer and you'll die unless you get $48,000 worth of chemotherapy, is that a free market? [2] A free market requires both the voluntary production and voluntary consumption of services. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market [2] https://www.asbestos.com/featured-stories/high-cost-of-cancer-treatment https://www.asbestos.com/featured-stories/high-cost-of-cance...
- winston_smith 6y ago
  As a Canadian you pay up every time you pay taxes, and you don't negotiate because you take what the government gives you. If they say your orthopedic surgery happens in six months, then that's what you get, or you start shopping south of the border.
  - arcticbull 6y ago
    Re taxes: I explicitly addressed that. The government negotiates with the drug companies and sets pricing for an efficiently functional health system. I don't have to and shouldn't have to negotiate. The system costs half per capita to operate and covers everyone. Re: waiting times, take it from the horses' mouth, you've been fed a crock [1]. Of course the system could be better, but on the whole you're just wrong. The insurance lobby has spent a lot of time, money and effort to convince you of that. The data backs that up. A small handful of Canadians go to the US to "shop for orthopedic surgery" out of millions of visits per year in Canada. After all a hip replacement in America costs one hundred thousand dollars. Just how many Canadians do you think there are with a spare $100K USD ($128,500 CAD) kicking around in the old piggy bank for a new hip that'd be free in a few months? [2] If you see 50-60,000 ish numbers they tend to be the 'snowbirds' - Canadians living in Florida for half the year who choose to seek care close to their winter homes. These are folks wealthy enough to have winter homes, and also maintain private insurance. [1] https://www.npr.org/2020/06/27/884307565/after-pushing-lies-former-cigna-executive-praises-canadas-health-care-system https://www.npr.org/2020/06/27/884307565/after-pushing-lies-... [2] https://www.vox.com/2016/10/9/13222798/canadians-seeking-medical-care-us-trump-debate https://www.vox.com/2016/10/9/13222798/canadians-seeking-med...
- unishark 6y ago
  > You either have insurance or you're driven into Chapter 11. Further I suspect this is not due to good will but rather government intervention. You really are making a lot of bold assertions. If you declare bankruptcy, the hospital gets zero. Negotiation is a process by which both sides give something to meet in the middle. Yes they do it. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/28/you-can-negotiate-your-medical-bills-heres-how-to-lower-your-costs.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/28/you-can-negotiate-your-medic...
amznthrwaway 6y ago
If your argument was right, medical bankruptcies would not be a major problem in the United States. Folks would negotiate out without a hitch. However, they are a major problem, because you are absolutely fucking wrong. Please update your post to indicate that you were wrong, and to explain if you were wrong because you’re stupid, or if you knew you were wrong when you posted, but were hoping to trick people into supporting evil and sociopathic policies.

arcticbull 6y ago

> Personally I've never been told to pay up before receiving treatment at a hospital. Of course you have. The first thing you did when you walked in was hand them your ID and coverage info. You think hospitals operate on the honor system? As a Canadian I've never been asked to pay up before or after receiving treatment [edit: at the point of care]. And before you jump into taxation, Canadians pay less per capita in taxes than Americans ($13K vs $14K), and that's before you factor in the $600 per month in private tax you directly (or indirectly via employer) have to pay your insurers. > Especially when I arrive there unconscious. You either have insurance or you're driven into Chapter 11. Further I suspect this is not due to good will but rather government intervention. > And Herb Cohen would say once you've received the service, you're actually in a great negotiating position. The debt was incurred once the service was rendered, and you are now liable. 66.5% of all bankruptcies in the US are medical -- are they just bad negotiators? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make but it's not in good faith. > People actually negotiate hospital bills all the time. Especially in those crazy stories you hear about. That sounds the worst. > And you need a citation for your claim about when free markets do and don't work. Voluntary contractual exchange is one of the undisputed key pillars to a free market economy. If you're being told you will die without the service it is a coercive exchange and therefore violates one of the key tenets. [1] If I hold a gun to your head and tell you to buy my oranges for $1000 or I kill you, is the free market price of oranges $1000? If I tell you that you have cancer and you'll die unless you get $48,000 worth of chemotherapy, is that a free market? [2] A free market requires both the voluntary production and voluntary consumption of services. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_market [2] https://www.asbestos.com/featured-stories/high-cost-of-cancer-treatment https://www.asbestos.com/featured-stories/high-cost-of-cance...

winston_smith 6y ago
As a Canadian you pay up every time you pay taxes, and you don't negotiate because you take what the government gives you. If they say your orthopedic surgery happens in six months, then that's what you get, or you start shopping south of the border.
- arcticbull 6y ago
  Re taxes: I explicitly addressed that. The government negotiates with the drug companies and sets pricing for an efficiently functional health system. I don't have to and shouldn't have to negotiate. The system costs half per capita to operate and covers everyone. Re: waiting times, take it from the horses' mouth, you've been fed a crock [1]. Of course the system could be better, but on the whole you're just wrong. The insurance lobby has spent a lot of time, money and effort to convince you of that. The data backs that up. A small handful of Canadians go to the US to "shop for orthopedic surgery" out of millions of visits per year in Canada. After all a hip replacement in America costs one hundred thousand dollars. Just how many Canadians do you think there are with a spare $100K USD ($128,500 CAD) kicking around in the old piggy bank for a new hip that'd be free in a few months? [2] If you see 50-60,000 ish numbers they tend to be the 'snowbirds' - Canadians living in Florida for half the year who choose to seek care close to their winter homes. These are folks wealthy enough to have winter homes, and also maintain private insurance. [1] https://www.npr.org/2020/06/27/884307565/after-pushing-lies-former-cigna-executive-praises-canadas-health-care-system https://www.npr.org/2020/06/27/884307565/after-pushing-lies-... [2] https://www.vox.com/2016/10/9/13222798/canadians-seeking-medical-care-us-trump-debate https://www.vox.com/2016/10/9/13222798/canadians-seeking-med...
unishark 6y ago
> You either have insurance or you're driven into Chapter 11. Further I suspect this is not due to good will but rather government intervention. You really are making a lot of bold assertions. If you declare bankruptcy, the hospital gets zero. Negotiation is a process by which both sides give something to meet in the middle. Yes they do it. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/28/you-can-negotiate-your-medical-bills-heres-how-to-lower-your-costs.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/28/you-can-negotiate-your-medic...

amznthrwaway 6y ago

If your argument was right, medical bankruptcies would not be a major problem in the United States. Folks would negotiate out without a hitch. However, they are a major problem, because you are absolutely fucking wrong. Please update your post to indicate that you were wrong, and to explain if you were wrong because you’re stupid, or if you knew you were wrong when you posted, but were hoping to trick people into supporting evil and sociopathic policies.