5 ms·

That information is openly sold on the black market in Russia, and for a trivial amount of money. Check out their "How we did it" for the first investigation: h

by asats 6y ago

That information is openly sold on the black market in Russia, and for a trivial amount of money. Check out their "How we did it" for the first investigation: https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2020/12/14/navalny-fsb-methodology/ https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2020/12/14/navalny-fsb-...

nzmsv 6y ago
I guess anyone who is really curious could try to replicate what they did. The investigators clearly don't know Russian very well because they misspell common names ("Arur", really?). So anyone reading this comment should be able to find and use a Telegram bot just like the authors to get some phone records. Otherwise I call BS.
- asats 6y ago
  There is really no question about that data being available for purchase. This sort of stuff was being sold on physical DVD's on actual physical markets since the 2000s. Here's a ~2 year old BBC article talking about all this data being easily available for purchase online in a lot of detail with a reporter ordering their phone location history: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48348307 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48348307
  - uep 6y ago
    I knew someone who was retired FBI, who offered his services to me. He had said he could get phone records or bank account information on anyone, anywhere in the world. I don't know if he was blowing smoke, but this was apparently how he made money after retirement. It had sounded like former agents of all different countries have access and relationships with even adversarial countries' agents.
  - mikeyouse 6y ago
    There are literally Whatsapp accounts where you send them ~$15 and a name/DOB and they'll reply with a full "Dox" of any Russian citizen - it's a free-for-all over there.
    - nzmsv 6y ago
      I hear this quoted all the time, but I think this is just a tired trope. Repeat something often enough and it becomes true. We all know Russians are all corrupt, live in constant fear, bears walk the streets, and the only escape is vodka. In any case, it's easy enough for anyone with a reasonable doubt in what they are reading to check this. Bellingcat claims that anyone capable of Googling can get dox on any random Russian, including someone high up in the FSB. So try it! Pick a random person off the internet and go get those dox. It's a free for all, right? Otherwise what you are reading is a poorly retconned explanation of how a foreign intelligence operation got some data.
      - asats 6y ago
        You asked if someone tried to do it and already got a link where a BBC journalist bought a phone location data two years ago (that is, this being a thing is absolutely not news). Here's an independent russian newspaper estimating how much it'd cost to get all this data on the black market (note that they don't even question if it's possible to do it as everybody knows that it is possible) https://thebell.io/million-za-vseh-skolko-stoilo-rassledovanie-bellingcat-o-navalnom https://thebell.io/million-za-vseh-skolko-stoilo-rassledovan... They list which databases you'd buy it from and for how much. Their total estimate is about a million rubles, ~$13000 -- Here's another large russian newspaper: https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4616645 https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4616645 "For Navalny's investigation internet and some cash was enough" - "Experts interviewed by "Kommersant" confirm that flight receipts with passport numbers of passengers, their phone numbers and geo-tagged billing of the latter can be found on the black market at a price of 2-40 thousand rubles per request."
      - mikeyouse 6y ago
        > Bellingcat claims that anyone capable of Googling can get dox on any random Russian, including someone high up in the FSB. So try it! Pick a random person off the internet and go get those dox. It's a free for all, right? > Otherwise what you are reading is a poorly retconned explanation of how a foreign intelligence operation got some data. Like pointed out elsewhere, it's not "Bellingcat" claiming that it's easy to do -- it's literally everyone. * The Bell: https://thebell.io/million-za-vseh-skolko-stoilo-rassledovanie-bellingcat-o-navalnom https://thebell.io/million-za-vseh-skolko-stoilo-rassledovan... * BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48348307 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48348307 * Kommersant: https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4616645 https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4616645 * Teiss: https://www.teiss.co.uk/moscow-car-owners-data-sale/ https://www.teiss.co.uk/moscow-car-owners-data-sale/ I have no interest in navigating the stolen databases myself but plenty of other journalists have and confirm just everything exists like Belligcat says. Is it possible that Bellingcat were tipped off and used the databases to parallel construct their investigation? Sure? I guess? But it's exactly how they have performed many of their other investigations in Russia so I find it highly unlikely.

by asats 6y ago

nzmsv 6y ago

I guess anyone who is really curious could try to replicate what they did. The investigators clearly don't know Russian very well because they misspell common names ("Arur", really?). So anyone reading this comment should be able to find and use a Telegram bot just like the authors to get some phone records. Otherwise I call BS.

asats 6y ago
There is really no question about that data being available for purchase. This sort of stuff was being sold on physical DVD's on actual physical markets since the 2000s. Here's a ~2 year old BBC article talking about all this data being easily available for purchase online in a lot of detail with a reporter ordering their phone location history: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48348307 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48348307
- uep 6y ago
  I knew someone who was retired FBI, who offered his services to me. He had said he could get phone records or bank account information on anyone, anywhere in the world. I don't know if he was blowing smoke, but this was apparently how he made money after retirement. It had sounded like former agents of all different countries have access and relationships with even adversarial countries' agents.
- mikeyouse 6y ago
  There are literally Whatsapp accounts where you send them ~$15 and a name/DOB and they'll reply with a full "Dox" of any Russian citizen - it's a free-for-all over there.
  - nzmsv 6y ago
    I hear this quoted all the time, but I think this is just a tired trope. Repeat something often enough and it becomes true. We all know Russians are all corrupt, live in constant fear, bears walk the streets, and the only escape is vodka. In any case, it's easy enough for anyone with a reasonable doubt in what they are reading to check this. Bellingcat claims that anyone capable of Googling can get dox on any random Russian, including someone high up in the FSB. So try it! Pick a random person off the internet and go get those dox. It's a free for all, right? Otherwise what you are reading is a poorly retconned explanation of how a foreign intelligence operation got some data.
    - asats 6y ago
      You asked if someone tried to do it and already got a link where a BBC journalist bought a phone location data two years ago (that is, this being a thing is absolutely not news). Here's an independent russian newspaper estimating how much it'd cost to get all this data on the black market (note that they don't even question if it's possible to do it as everybody knows that it is possible) https://thebell.io/million-za-vseh-skolko-stoilo-rassledovanie-bellingcat-o-navalnom https://thebell.io/million-za-vseh-skolko-stoilo-rassledovan... They list which databases you'd buy it from and for how much. Their total estimate is about a million rubles, ~$13000 -- Here's another large russian newspaper: https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4616645 https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4616645 "For Navalny's investigation internet and some cash was enough" - "Experts interviewed by "Kommersant" confirm that flight receipts with passport numbers of passengers, their phone numbers and geo-tagged billing of the latter can be found on the black market at a price of 2-40 thousand rubles per request."
    - mikeyouse 6y ago
      > Bellingcat claims that anyone capable of Googling can get dox on any random Russian, including someone high up in the FSB. So try it! Pick a random person off the internet and go get those dox. It's a free for all, right? > Otherwise what you are reading is a poorly retconned explanation of how a foreign intelligence operation got some data. Like pointed out elsewhere, it's not "Bellingcat" claiming that it's easy to do -- it's literally everyone. * The Bell: https://thebell.io/million-za-vseh-skolko-stoilo-rassledovanie-bellingcat-o-navalnom https://thebell.io/million-za-vseh-skolko-stoilo-rassledovan... * BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48348307 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48348307 * Kommersant: https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4616645 https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/4616645 * Teiss: https://www.teiss.co.uk/moscow-car-owners-data-sale/ https://www.teiss.co.uk/moscow-car-owners-data-sale/ I have no interest in navigating the stolen databases myself but plenty of other journalists have and confirm just everything exists like Belligcat says. Is it possible that Bellingcat were tipped off and used the databases to parallel construct their investigation? Sure? I guess? But it's exactly how they have performed many of their other investigations in Russia so I find it highly unlikely.