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Honest question: do you feel comfortable knowing that your job is doing something which is essentially net zero value to society? Negative in fact, you're burni

Honest question: do you feel comfortable knowing that your job is doing something which is essentially net zero value to society? Negative in fact, you're burning resources which are needed elsewhere, and contributing to concentration of wealth. Not being rude or judgemental, just want to know how you feel about this.

KittenInABox 6y ago
Intuitively, providing more flow + allowing more efficient allocation of resources via algo is pretty valuable to society. Problem is that society is squandering that efficiency.
- wizzwizz4 6y ago
  The stock market is about allocation of profits, and high-frequency trading is about extracting profits from the profit allocation system. This isn't investment we're talking about; this is the stock market.
qw3rty01 6y ago
This is a pretty loaded question to then say "not trying to be judgemental"...take out the bias if that's actually the case: "What kind of benefit do you believe your work provides to society?" or "How do you justify the extra resources taken away from society that may be more beneficial elsewhere, such as X?"
- wizzwizz4 6y ago
  I'd argue that “how do you justify” is more loaded. “Do you feel comfortable with [objective description of the reason one might be uncomfortable with it]?” is better than how I'd ask it.
- andrepd 6y ago
  Well I don't know how to make it less loaded x) It's just how things are, it's a work that does no useful work in any meaningful sense, but serves to make some already fabulously rich people even richer (in fact, it extracts that value from non-HFT traders, so even those are shafted here). My point is that I'm curious regarding how the people who work in these things feel about their job. Do they think they're doing a right thing? Do they "own it" to themselves that they don't care as long as they make money? Do they not think about it too much?
  - logifail 6y ago
    > it's a work that does no useful work in any meaningful sense, but serves to make some already fabulously rich people even richer Isn't Robinhood able to offer free trading to customers solely because they sell their order flow on to, among others, HFT firms?[0] [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/how-robinhood-makes-money-on-customer-trades-despite-making-it-free.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/how-robinhood-makes-money-on...
  - sbeller 6y ago
    > (in fact, it extracts that value from non-HFT traders, so even those are shafted here). in return HFT provides liquidity (and by that smaller spreads) to the market, I would think. If you ever bought or sold a stock with a market order, you profited from the work the HFT is doing.
  - MockObject 6y ago
    The abstraction of "society", that is presumably supposed to benefit from everyone's job, is hiding the crucial details. His job facilitates trades between people who want to trade with each other. Since they are part of society, our society benefits from his work. Evidently it's doing more than "make some already fabulously rich people even richer", because it's paying salaries for some programmers, as well.
caffeine 6y ago
Short answer: I am comfortable with my job. I think your question makes some incorrect factual assumptions, but also it incorporates a world view that I don't subscribe to (not wrong, but also not what I believe). I think that if I had your belief system and your set of facts, I would probably feel uncomfortable about it.
- andrepd 6y ago
  The world view is simply that this technology arms race performs no useful work to society. It's simply people with capital investing enormous sums into gaming a system and extracting $$. Okay, this so far is not even a view, it's just how things are. The "view" is that it is wrong x) Much like one could argue that e.g. the yacht industry diverts resources and people from other more pressing needs. As for "my" set of facts... well they're just facts :) not "mine" or "yours".

KittenInABox 6y ago

Intuitively, providing more flow + allowing more efficient allocation of resources via algo is pretty valuable to society. Problem is that society is squandering that efficiency.

wizzwizz4 6y ago
The stock market is about allocation of profits, and high-frequency trading is about extracting profits from the profit allocation system. This isn't investment we're talking about; this is the stock market.

qw3rty01 6y ago

This is a pretty loaded question to then say "not trying to be judgemental"...take out the bias if that's actually the case: "What kind of benefit do you believe your work provides to society?" or "How do you justify the extra resources taken away from society that may be more beneficial elsewhere, such as X?"

wizzwizz4 6y ago
I'd argue that “how do you justify” is more loaded. “Do you feel comfortable with [objective description of the reason one might be uncomfortable with it]?” is better than how I'd ask it.
andrepd 6y ago
Well I don't know how to make it less loaded x) It's just how things are, it's a work that does no useful work in any meaningful sense, but serves to make some already fabulously rich people even richer (in fact, it extracts that value from non-HFT traders, so even those are shafted here). My point is that I'm curious regarding how the people who work in these things feel about their job. Do they think they're doing a right thing? Do they "own it" to themselves that they don't care as long as they make money? Do they not think about it too much?
- logifail 6y ago
  > it's a work that does no useful work in any meaningful sense, but serves to make some already fabulously rich people even richer Isn't Robinhood able to offer free trading to customers solely because they sell their order flow on to, among others, HFT firms?[0] [0] https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/how-robinhood-makes-money-on-customer-trades-despite-making-it-free.html https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/13/how-robinhood-makes-money-on...
- sbeller 6y ago
  > (in fact, it extracts that value from non-HFT traders, so even those are shafted here). in return HFT provides liquidity (and by that smaller spreads) to the market, I would think. If you ever bought or sold a stock with a market order, you profited from the work the HFT is doing.
- MockObject 6y ago
  The abstraction of "society", that is presumably supposed to benefit from everyone's job, is hiding the crucial details. His job facilitates trades between people who want to trade with each other. Since they are part of society, our society benefits from his work. Evidently it's doing more than "make some already fabulously rich people even richer", because it's paying salaries for some programmers, as well.

caffeine 6y ago

Short answer: I am comfortable with my job. I think your question makes some incorrect factual assumptions, but also it incorporates a world view that I don't subscribe to (not wrong, but also not what I believe). I think that if I had your belief system and your set of facts, I would probably feel uncomfortable about it.

andrepd 6y ago
The world view is simply that this technology arms race performs no useful work to society. It's simply people with capital investing enormous sums into gaming a system and extracting $$. Okay, this so far is not even a view, it's just how things are. The "view" is that it is wrong x) Much like one could argue that e.g. the yacht industry diverts resources and people from other more pressing needs. As for "my" set of facts... well they're just facts :) not "mine" or "yours".