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The article states: > Don’t think this is enough to make them stay in the business. Troubling times for Nikon :( Is there some context on this? Is Nikon facin

by dbrgn 6y ago

The article states: > Don’t think this is enough to make them stay in the business. Troubling times for Nikon :( Is there some context on this? Is Nikon facing trouble, and if yes, why?

jiofih 6y ago
Mobile phones have devoured the camera market. It’s 1/100th of the size it was a decade ago. On the professional DSLR front, they’re having their lunch regularly eaten by Sony, Canon and Fujifilm.
- amenod 6y ago
  Sony yes, but Canon? I thought it was faring worse than Nikon, or am I mistaken?
  - echelon 6y ago
    Canon is frequently used in film for smaller productions. Nikon isn't used at all in that market.
    - colechristensen 6y ago
      Which is stupid, it’s just because you can’t. Most Nikon models don’t have a clean hdmi output and limit video recording to twenty minutes.
      - ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
        The twenty minute thing is because of device classification. If a device records twenty minutes or more of continuous video, it is classified as a video device, which changes the regulatory structure. If you watch movies, these days, it's almost unheard of for a single shot to be more than a minute or two in length. Even films like 1917 are really digitally-stitched montages. I think the real reason is that Canon is ferociously dedicated to video, and they market that aggressively. It's a very different market from still images.
        dbrgn 6y ago
        Are you sure about the clasification? From what I heard the main issue is often cooling. Cameras and sensors are often not engineered as video capturing devices, so recording time needs to be limited to prevent overheating. Often you cannot just stop and re-start the recording after the recording limit, because the camera is still too hot, it will stop recording after a few seconds. At least this is how it works for Fujifilm X-series cameras (which have higher recording limits though and are frequently used as hybrid cameras for video recording jobs).
        ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
        Well, it was what was explained to me by a marketing manager. The cooling thing hasn't been an issue for many years, since they changed their sensor design. Might also be a power-consumption thing, as the shutter needs to be kept open (I don't think they are using virtual shutters, yet), as well as (for DSLRs) the mirror.
        cromulent 6y ago
        I don't know much about the topic, but I noticed this the other day: https://www.diyphotography.net/this-guy-liquid-cooled-his-canon-eos-r5-and-beat-the-8k-overheating-issues/ https://www.diyphotography.net/this-guy-liquid-cooled-his-ca...
        ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
        There's definitely an issue with any kind of electronics and heat. "Hasn't been an issue" doesn't mean "won't blow up when overclocked." That said, astrophotographers like to cool their sensors, because it reduces noise.
        mschuster91 6y ago
        > Are you sure about the clasification? From what I heard the main issue is often cooling. It is a tax issue - specifically a 2007 EU decision. (https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6779714320/cipaeustatement https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6779714320/cipaeustatement). I have a Sony A7S2 which can do, after the jailbreak, over two hours without breaking a sweat (never went above that because I didn't need it). The exception is anything involving sunlight - there the A7S2 runs into cooling issues without a sunshade.
  - nix23 6y ago
    Canon and Nikon are the top players.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
    Canon is pretty much even with them, on the DSLR front. Canon kind of "owns" the DSLR video camera market, but gets regularly beaten in still images for pros. What Canon has, is diversification. It's a much bigger company, with many different markets.
  - dagw 6y ago
    Canon is much larger and more diverse company than Nikon. I don't know who is doing better in the DSLR space, but Canon is almost certainly doing better overall.
    - tesseract 6y ago
      Isn't Nikon still a pretty big player in semiconductor (and OLED/LCD) lithography equipment? I don't know what percentage of the business that is though compared to cameras.
- dbrgn 6y ago
  I can imagine, I also just switched from a Canon DSLR to a mirrorless Fujifilm. Even apart from smartphones, purely in the photography space, mirrorless cameras are becoming more popular (and I'm not aware of a significant offering by Nikon in that area).
  - jillesvangurp 6y ago
    Nikon has a nice mirrorless series of cameras (the Z-series). Both Canon and Nikon have gotten more serious on that front over the last few years. Especially their full frame mirrorless offerings are pretty nice and competitive. Sony is still considered quite good in this space but it is a lot closer than it was a few years ago. I also bought a Fuji this year (X-T30), upgrading from an old Canon Rebel. I'm so far really liking it. For me it's as much about the form-factor as it is about the image quality. Regarding phone cameras; they are quite nice these days but it's a different market. You can pick up a decent mirrorless camera for the price of a top range smart phone and it will give you a much wider range of options in terms of quality, focal length, stabilization, etc. That matters to only some people but those people still exist.
    - xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
      I switched from an old Nikon DSLR to Fuji X-T3 this year as well, and it's great. From the form factor to ergonomics, plus I use it as a webcam with incredible bokeh. Mirrorless is the future, and I don't even miss full frame.
chongli 6y ago
Phone cameras would seem to jump out as the logical reason to me. Yes, everyone knows that DSLRs are way better than phone cameras and give way more control, but... the best camera is the one that’s with you.
- dbrgn 6y ago
  I can understand how it eats into the compact camera market (I wanted to buy a compact camera a year ago, and essentially all models on the market today are from 2005-2010 and usually vastly inferior in quality to a high-end phone). However, while a lot of photographers use something like an iPhone in addition to a regular camera, good cameras are still needed.
trm42 6y ago
Nikon was the second biggest camera manufacturer until recently when Sony ate their market. Even in the early 2010s Nikon was thought as the innovator and techically better than Canon but Sony stole that title. Nikon fumbled with the mirrorless market quite spectacularly and nowadays its mirrorless cameras like Z6 and Z7 are basically copies of what Sony published year or two earlier but with quite bad native lens line-up. The funny thing here is that Nikon outsourced the sensor development to Sony in the 2000s.
- shmageggy 6y ago
  Plus they compounded their misstep by not publishing the spec for the new Z mount, so third-party manufacturers can't make lenses for it without reverse engineering. So the result is now not only are they behind on body tech, but you can only buy a dozen or so native lenses for Z, meanwhile the are ~150 for Sony. You can guess which system I chose to buy into.
tpmx 6y ago
In the short term: The pandemic. "Camera Sales in 2020 Have Plummeted As Much As 54%" https://petapixel.com/2020/11/06/camera-sales-in-2020-have-plummeted-as-much-as-54/ https://petapixel.com/2020/11/06/camera-sales-in-2020-have-p...
- iso1631 6y ago
  Weird. With people stuck at home, and less time spent commuting and socialising, I'd have imagined hobbies like photography to take off.
  - dagw 6y ago
    Most people buying new DSLRs are either professionals or freelancers who need it for their jobs (which they no longer have) or serious amateurs looking to upgrade, often in conjunction with a big event or trip (which are no longer happening). People who decide to take up photography as a hobby will in almost every case start with their smartphone.
  - Sebb767 6y ago
    Cameras are _really_ expensive and a lot of photo opportunities, such as travel and events, have vanished. Even landscape photography is hard when you're discouraged from driving to the interesting landscapes and your local area is probably not that interesting for photo opportunities (at least for yourself).
  - paulnechifor 6y ago
    It's hard to take photos when you're not allowed to leave your home... I just put my tripod inside my backpack and pretend I'm an essential worker.
hrktb 6y ago
They are slow to move and have a hard time to keep up with the world moving on. That leads to a world of trouble for them: - mobile phones eating the “good enough”/ “well integrated” spectrum - Sony eating the “best value”/“modern camera” spectrum - Fuji eating the “different form factor” spectrum - Panasonic still hanging on the 3/4 side They’ll survive, and keep making good camera that pros are waiting for, but it will be rough.
- noobermin 6y ago
  You left out Canon, their main competitor for pro cameras.
  - hrktb 6y ago
    I kind of see Nikon and Canon as frenemies, together in the tranches trying to survive in an hostile world. A bit like how Vim and Emacs’ future is not bound to how they do against each other. It would more about securing a place in their user’s life in the first place.

by dbrgn 6y ago

The article states: > Don’t think this is enough to make them stay in the business. Troubling times for Nikon :( Is there some context on this? Is Nikon facing trouble, and if yes, why?

jiofih 6y ago

Mobile phones have devoured the camera market. It’s 1/100th of the size it was a decade ago. On the professional DSLR front, they’re having their lunch regularly eaten by Sony, Canon and Fujifilm.

amenod 6y ago
Sony yes, but Canon? I thought it was faring worse than Nikon, or am I mistaken?
- echelon 6y ago
  Canon is frequently used in film for smaller productions. Nikon isn't used at all in that market.
  - colechristensen 6y ago
    Which is stupid, it’s just because you can’t. Most Nikon models don’t have a clean hdmi output and limit video recording to twenty minutes.
    - ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
      The twenty minute thing is because of device classification. If a device records twenty minutes or more of continuous video, it is classified as a video device, which changes the regulatory structure. If you watch movies, these days, it's almost unheard of for a single shot to be more than a minute or two in length. Even films like 1917 are really digitally-stitched montages. I think the real reason is that Canon is ferociously dedicated to video, and they market that aggressively. It's a very different market from still images.
      - dbrgn 6y ago
        Are you sure about the clasification? From what I heard the main issue is often cooling. Cameras and sensors are often not engineered as video capturing devices, so recording time needs to be limited to prevent overheating. Often you cannot just stop and re-start the recording after the recording limit, because the camera is still too hot, it will stop recording after a few seconds. At least this is how it works for Fujifilm X-series cameras (which have higher recording limits though and are frequently used as hybrid cameras for video recording jobs).
        ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
        Well, it was what was explained to me by a marketing manager. The cooling thing hasn't been an issue for many years, since they changed their sensor design. Might also be a power-consumption thing, as the shutter needs to be kept open (I don't think they are using virtual shutters, yet), as well as (for DSLRs) the mirror.
        cromulent 6y ago
        I don't know much about the topic, but I noticed this the other day: https://www.diyphotography.net/this-guy-liquid-cooled-his-canon-eos-r5-and-beat-the-8k-overheating-issues/ https://www.diyphotography.net/this-guy-liquid-cooled-his-ca...
        ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
        There's definitely an issue with any kind of electronics and heat. "Hasn't been an issue" doesn't mean "won't blow up when overclocked." That said, astrophotographers like to cool their sensors, because it reduces noise.
        mschuster91 6y ago
        > Are you sure about the clasification? From what I heard the main issue is often cooling. It is a tax issue - specifically a 2007 EU decision. (https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6779714320/cipaeustatement https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6779714320/cipaeustatement). I have a Sony A7S2 which can do, after the jailbreak, over two hours without breaking a sweat (never went above that because I didn't need it). The exception is anything involving sunlight - there the A7S2 runs into cooling issues without a sunshade.
- nix23 6y ago
  Canon and Nikon are the top players.
- ChrisMarshallNY 6y ago
  Canon is pretty much even with them, on the DSLR front. Canon kind of "owns" the DSLR video camera market, but gets regularly beaten in still images for pros. What Canon has, is diversification. It's a much bigger company, with many different markets.
- dagw 6y ago
  Canon is much larger and more diverse company than Nikon. I don't know who is doing better in the DSLR space, but Canon is almost certainly doing better overall.
  - tesseract 6y ago
    Isn't Nikon still a pretty big player in semiconductor (and OLED/LCD) lithography equipment? I don't know what percentage of the business that is though compared to cameras.
dbrgn 6y ago
I can imagine, I also just switched from a Canon DSLR to a mirrorless Fujifilm. Even apart from smartphones, purely in the photography space, mirrorless cameras are becoming more popular (and I'm not aware of a significant offering by Nikon in that area).
- jillesvangurp 6y ago
  Nikon has a nice mirrorless series of cameras (the Z-series). Both Canon and Nikon have gotten more serious on that front over the last few years. Especially their full frame mirrorless offerings are pretty nice and competitive. Sony is still considered quite good in this space but it is a lot closer than it was a few years ago. I also bought a Fuji this year (X-T30), upgrading from an old Canon Rebel. I'm so far really liking it. For me it's as much about the form-factor as it is about the image quality. Regarding phone cameras; they are quite nice these days but it's a different market. You can pick up a decent mirrorless camera for the price of a top range smart phone and it will give you a much wider range of options in terms of quality, focal length, stabilization, etc. That matters to only some people but those people still exist.
  - xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
    I switched from an old Nikon DSLR to Fuji X-T3 this year as well, and it's great. From the form factor to ergonomics, plus I use it as a webcam with incredible bokeh. Mirrorless is the future, and I don't even miss full frame.

chongli 6y ago

Phone cameras would seem to jump out as the logical reason to me. Yes, everyone knows that DSLRs are way better than phone cameras and give way more control, but... the best camera is the one that’s with you.

dbrgn 6y ago
I can understand how it eats into the compact camera market (I wanted to buy a compact camera a year ago, and essentially all models on the market today are from 2005-2010 and usually vastly inferior in quality to a high-end phone). However, while a lot of photographers use something like an iPhone in addition to a regular camera, good cameras are still needed.

trm42 6y ago

Nikon was the second biggest camera manufacturer until recently when Sony ate their market. Even in the early 2010s Nikon was thought as the innovator and techically better than Canon but Sony stole that title. Nikon fumbled with the mirrorless market quite spectacularly and nowadays its mirrorless cameras like Z6 and Z7 are basically copies of what Sony published year or two earlier but with quite bad native lens line-up. The funny thing here is that Nikon outsourced the sensor development to Sony in the 2000s.

shmageggy 6y ago
Plus they compounded their misstep by not publishing the spec for the new Z mount, so third-party manufacturers can't make lenses for it without reverse engineering. So the result is now not only are they behind on body tech, but you can only buy a dozen or so native lenses for Z, meanwhile the are ~150 for Sony. You can guess which system I chose to buy into.

tpmx 6y ago

In the short term: The pandemic. "Camera Sales in 2020 Have Plummeted As Much As 54%" https://petapixel.com/2020/11/06/camera-sales-in-2020-have-plummeted-as-much-as-54/ https://petapixel.com/2020/11/06/camera-sales-in-2020-have-p...

iso1631 6y ago
Weird. With people stuck at home, and less time spent commuting and socialising, I'd have imagined hobbies like photography to take off.
- dagw 6y ago
  Most people buying new DSLRs are either professionals or freelancers who need it for their jobs (which they no longer have) or serious amateurs looking to upgrade, often in conjunction with a big event or trip (which are no longer happening). People who decide to take up photography as a hobby will in almost every case start with their smartphone.
- Sebb767 6y ago
  Cameras are _really_ expensive and a lot of photo opportunities, such as travel and events, have vanished. Even landscape photography is hard when you're discouraged from driving to the interesting landscapes and your local area is probably not that interesting for photo opportunities (at least for yourself).
- paulnechifor 6y ago
  It's hard to take photos when you're not allowed to leave your home... I just put my tripod inside my backpack and pretend I'm an essential worker.

hrktb 6y ago

They are slow to move and have a hard time to keep up with the world moving on. That leads to a world of trouble for them: - mobile phones eating the “good enough”/ “well integrated” spectrum - Sony eating the “best value”/“modern camera” spectrum - Fuji eating the “different form factor” spectrum - Panasonic still hanging on the 3/4 side They’ll survive, and keep making good camera that pros are waiting for, but it will be rough.

noobermin 6y ago
You left out Canon, their main competitor for pro cameras.
- hrktb 6y ago
  I kind of see Nikon and Canon as frenemies, together in the tranches trying to survive in an hostile world. A bit like how Vim and Emacs’ future is not bound to how they do against each other. It would more about securing a place in their user’s life in the first place.