6 ms·

Herald – Bluetooth contact tracing protocol

55 points by npad 6y ago

steve_taylor 6y ago
The market for this product is governments who stubbornly refuse to use the exposure notifications framework because they think they know better. It’s a pile of trash that drains the battery, particularly on older phones. https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-ios/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aclosed https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-ios/issues?q=is%3Aiss...
- senectus1 6y ago
  is Herald the one Covid-safe in Australia uses? That thing utterly murders the battery on new phones as well. I have a Note 10 + 5G and my wife has the S20 Plus and running that means having to recharge the battery multiple times a day or risk running around without any phone. Sometimes my wife has noticed that the battery will go DOWN while being charged. so we uninstalled the app and the problem has gone. I was an advocate for it when they were talking about releasing it... but as usual the Australian Gov is technically incompetent.
  - steve_taylor 6y ago
    Yes, Australia’s COVIDSafe app uses Herald.
    - mcbain 6y ago
      On iOS it only switched to Herald in v2.0 which - according to my phone - was installed 2 days ago.
      - steve_taylor 6y ago
        That’s when I finally uninstalled it.
- lloeki 6y ago
  After a first app failure (stopcovid19), France uses the ROBERT protocol in its second app TousAntiCOVID (which is just a rebrand+slight pivot into focused news); apparently the protocol is joint-developed between Fraunhofer (Germany) and INRIA (France). The irony is that Germany uses iOS contact tracing, so as I live near the border I miss detection of a high vector. Scratch that, I -would miss-, it I used the app, which I don’t because it has to be opened, manually toggled on, and stay in the foreground to do any contact tracing. Even if it were not for the battery use, the power of defaults means that the app is rarely activated by people, (when it’s installed at all since it’s not listed in the initial iOS alert you get and pick France). Desperate posters “here I activate TousAntiCOVID” are being placated in shopping malls and stuff. It’s ridiculous. https://gitlab.inria.fr/stopcovid19/accueil https://gitlab.inria.fr/stopcovid19/accueil
  - joachim4 6y ago
    But France showed repeatedly that they don't understand science, do want to listen to it, and don't want to learn from it. From the masks to the current christmas holidays who will create a 3rd wave, they proved they don't handle this virus very well. Add to that a bit of science nationalism from the De Gaulle era, and we ended up with that app.
  - wut42 6y ago
    ROBERT was used in the first app too.
- captn3m0 6y ago
  India: https://github.com/nic-delhi/AarogyaSetu_Android/issues/385 https://github.com/nic-delhi/AarogyaSetu_Android/issues/385
snops 6y ago
Very interesting how they made this work on iOS, given so many failed (before the Apple/Google protocol was released). A lot of the design documentation references the UK market, I wonder if VMWare were asked/volunteered to help with the NHSX app that tried to ignore the Apple/Google "blessed" approach. > Provides a number of approaches to workaround the ‘iOS detection in the background’ bug in iOS to a point where detection and continuity is superior to existing protocols The technical details on the protocol (seperate from the "payload" which is contact tracing specific data) are here[1], and the iOS library here[2]. I would be interested if anyone else has verified these claims. [1] https://vmware.github.io/herald/specs/protocol https://vmware.github.io/herald/specs/protocol [2] https://github.com/vmware/herald-for-ios https://github.com/vmware/herald-for-ios
- andylynch 6y ago
  Yes. VMWare were one of the lead contractors on the original UK app, but are no longer on the project.
- netshroud 6y ago
  There is a bit of evidence that it _doesn't_ work on iOS, at least not as well as advertised. https://github.com/vmware/herald-for-ios/issues/15 https://github.com/vmware/herald-for-ios/issues/15 https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-ios/issues/29#issuecomment-736088913 https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-ios/issues/29#issueco... https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-ios/issues/29#issuecomment-737675385 https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-ios/issues/29#issueco...
hiharryhere 6y ago
I used the Australian COVIDSafe ios app today which uses herald. The only way it can keep the app receiving Bluetooth while in the background is to request location permissions and show the blue ios bar at the top that says “COVIDSafe is using your location”. It’s a hack. Nobody seems to spell that out in the media coverage about it. Yes it works some of the time, but only under very specific circumstances. Someone needs to tell it straight. It doesn’t work, we should just use the platform provided apis and be done with it. Edit: this is an excellent summary of what’s wrong with the Australian app: https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-android/issues/30 https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-android/issues/30
- amanzi 6y ago
  I was so pleased to see the NZ govt integrate the native ENF from iOS and Android into our Covid app. It took longer than I would have liked, and there were some misguided investigations into alternatives (like the Bluetooth "covid card" that would dangle around people's necks on lanyards) but it's a great result for us.
- justsee 6y ago
  I'm in awe of the effort Jim Mussared (https://twitter.com/jim_mussared https://twitter.com/jim_mussared), Vanessa Teague (https://twitter.com/VTeagueAus https://twitter.com/VTeagueAus) and a few others have put into identifying serious issues with the COVIDSafe app (and making sensible, well-informed recommendations). That ticket is incredibly damning of the Australian Government. Highly-skilled technologists and cryptographers volunteer significant amounts of time in the hope critical digital infrastructure can be improved and everything is basically dismissed.
- merlinscholz 6y ago
  Sadly it's the exact same situation as with the German covid app. The limitations of what can be done without the iOS/Android APIs are too high to make the app useful, as can be seen in the official documentation: https://github.com/corona-warn-app/cwa-documentation/blob/master/solution_architecture.md#limitations https://github.com/corona-warn-app/cwa-documentation/blob/ma...
eatonphil 6y ago
New York has a bluetooth based app as well. I keep bluetooth off because it drains the battery. So after a while I deleted the app because I couldn't remember to keep turning bluetooth on.
jrmg 6y ago
Is there a short summary of what this purports to provide that the Apple/Google APIs do not?
- qzervaas 6y ago
  Their claims change depending on the day, but they include: * Better long tail of older device support (meaningless if the app doesn't work, and completely debunked now that ENF supports iOS 12) * They want to control contact tracing, rather than have the app directly notify the user (this isn't a requirement of ENF, but the Govt falsely claims it is. In fact, ENF can still notify authorities so a contact tracing phone interview can take place. The only difference is that with ENF, you can't force a user to enter their phone number to start using the app) * They want a better picture of the entire social graph, since ENF gives more vague / anonymous data. This is the only partially valid claim they make, however, this is predicated on the current app actually working and providing that information, which is does not.

55 points by npad 6y ago

The market for this product is governments who stubbornly refuse to use the exposure notifications framework because they think they know better. It’s a pile of trash that drains the battery, particularly on older phones. https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-ios/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aclosed https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-ios/issues?q=is%3Aiss...

senectus1 6y ago
is Herald the one Covid-safe in Australia uses? That thing utterly murders the battery on new phones as well. I have a Note 10 + 5G and my wife has the S20 Plus and running that means having to recharge the battery multiple times a day or risk running around without any phone. Sometimes my wife has noticed that the battery will go DOWN while being charged. so we uninstalled the app and the problem has gone. I was an advocate for it when they were talking about releasing it... but as usual the Australian Gov is technically incompetent.
- steve_taylor 6y ago
  Yes, Australia’s COVIDSafe app uses Herald.
  - mcbain 6y ago
    On iOS it only switched to Herald in v2.0 which - according to my phone - was installed 2 days ago.
    - steve_taylor 6y ago
      That’s when I finally uninstalled it.
lloeki 6y ago
After a first app failure (stopcovid19), France uses the ROBERT protocol in its second app TousAntiCOVID (which is just a rebrand+slight pivot into focused news); apparently the protocol is joint-developed between Fraunhofer (Germany) and INRIA (France). The irony is that Germany uses iOS contact tracing, so as I live near the border I miss detection of a high vector. Scratch that, I -would miss-, it I used the app, which I don’t because it has to be opened, manually toggled on, and stay in the foreground to do any contact tracing. Even if it were not for the battery use, the power of defaults means that the app is rarely activated by people, (when it’s installed at all since it’s not listed in the initial iOS alert you get and pick France). Desperate posters “here I activate TousAntiCOVID” are being placated in shopping malls and stuff. It’s ridiculous. https://gitlab.inria.fr/stopcovid19/accueil https://gitlab.inria.fr/stopcovid19/accueil
- joachim4 6y ago
  But France showed repeatedly that they don't understand science, do want to listen to it, and don't want to learn from it. From the masks to the current christmas holidays who will create a 3rd wave, they proved they don't handle this virus very well. Add to that a bit of science nationalism from the De Gaulle era, and we ended up with that app.
- wut42 6y ago
  ROBERT was used in the first app too.
captn3m0 6y ago
India: https://github.com/nic-delhi/AarogyaSetu_Android/issues/385 https://github.com/nic-delhi/AarogyaSetu_Android/issues/385

snops 6y ago

Very interesting how they made this work on iOS, given so many failed (before the Apple/Google protocol was released). A lot of the design documentation references the UK market, I wonder if VMWare were asked/volunteered to help with the NHSX app that tried to ignore the Apple/Google "blessed" approach. > Provides a number of approaches to workaround the ‘iOS detection in the background’ bug in iOS to a point where detection and continuity is superior to existing protocols The technical details on the protocol (seperate from the "payload" which is contact tracing specific data) are here[1], and the iOS library here[2]. I would be interested if anyone else has verified these claims. [1] https://vmware.github.io/herald/specs/protocol https://vmware.github.io/herald/specs/protocol [2] https://github.com/vmware/herald-for-ios https://github.com/vmware/herald-for-ios

andylynch 6y ago
Yes. VMWare were one of the lead contractors on the original UK app, but are no longer on the project.
netshroud 6y ago
There is a bit of evidence that it _doesn't_ work on iOS, at least not as well as advertised. https://github.com/vmware/herald-for-ios/issues/15 https://github.com/vmware/herald-for-ios/issues/15 https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-ios/issues/29#issuecomment-736088913 https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-ios/issues/29#issueco... https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-ios/issues/29#issuecomment-737675385 https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-ios/issues/29#issueco...

hiharryhere 6y ago

I used the Australian COVIDSafe ios app today which uses herald. The only way it can keep the app receiving Bluetooth while in the background is to request location permissions and show the blue ios bar at the top that says “COVIDSafe is using your location”. It’s a hack. Nobody seems to spell that out in the media coverage about it. Yes it works some of the time, but only under very specific circumstances. Someone needs to tell it straight. It doesn’t work, we should just use the platform provided apis and be done with it. Edit: this is an excellent summary of what’s wrong with the Australian app: https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-android/issues/30 https://github.com/AU-COVIDSafe/mobile-android/issues/30

amanzi 6y ago
I was so pleased to see the NZ govt integrate the native ENF from iOS and Android into our Covid app. It took longer than I would have liked, and there were some misguided investigations into alternatives (like the Bluetooth "covid card" that would dangle around people's necks on lanyards) but it's a great result for us.
justsee 6y ago
I'm in awe of the effort Jim Mussared (https://twitter.com/jim_mussared https://twitter.com/jim_mussared), Vanessa Teague (https://twitter.com/VTeagueAus https://twitter.com/VTeagueAus) and a few others have put into identifying serious issues with the COVIDSafe app (and making sensible, well-informed recommendations). That ticket is incredibly damning of the Australian Government. Highly-skilled technologists and cryptographers volunteer significant amounts of time in the hope critical digital infrastructure can be improved and everything is basically dismissed.
merlinscholz 6y ago
Sadly it's the exact same situation as with the German covid app. The limitations of what can be done without the iOS/Android APIs are too high to make the app useful, as can be seen in the official documentation: https://github.com/corona-warn-app/cwa-documentation/blob/master/solution_architecture.md#limitations https://github.com/corona-warn-app/cwa-documentation/blob/ma...

eatonphil 6y ago

New York has a bluetooth based app as well. I keep bluetooth off because it drains the battery. So after a while I deleted the app because I couldn't remember to keep turning bluetooth on.

jrmg 6y ago

Is there a short summary of what this purports to provide that the Apple/Google APIs do not?

qzervaas 6y ago
Their claims change depending on the day, but they include: * Better long tail of older device support (meaningless if the app doesn't work, and completely debunked now that ENF supports iOS 12) * They want to control contact tracing, rather than have the app directly notify the user (this isn't a requirement of ENF, but the Govt falsely claims it is. In fact, ENF can still notify authorities so a contact tracing phone interview can take place. The only difference is that with ENF, you can't force a user to enter their phone number to start using the app) * They want a better picture of the entire social graph, since ENF gives more vague / anonymous data. This is the only partially valid claim they make, however, this is predicated on the current app actually working and providing that information, which is does not.