3 ms·

They underestimated and had no idea what people are doing with their computers. Wayland removed many features and use cases from X11 because they thought no on

They underestimated and had no idea what people are doing with their computers. Wayland removed many features and use cases from X11 because they thought no one used them. This is what happens when isolated developers without market research make the shots I suppose. Originally libinput did not even offer a way to disable mouse acceleration as they thought no one would ever do that — anyone who plays video games would obviously laugh at this notion since the præcision required for many video games is completely compromised by the floaty feel of m.a., but they don't play them I suppose. Talking with many of the Wayland devs reveals their ignorance, this would be fine if they were willing to listen, but at this point it has clearly become an issue of tribalism and because they probably heard it so many times they simply become defensive now as admitting it this point would be admitting defeat an that they were wrong, with pride on the line they continue to insist that one does not “need” these features because the compositor can provide everything, yet no compositor exists that does and it would be madness to expect any to.

pjmlp 6y ago
Wayland is mostly driven by X.Org Server devs actually.
- Blikkentrekker 6y ago
  Only insofar that the same developers work on the hardware and input drivers for both, and even frequently share code with one another, libinput also works with Xorg of course, and logind's mechanism for starting an unprivileged compositor was backported to Xorg as well. However, the original designers of the X11 protocol no longer even work on X for the most part, and some of them are dead. And even with the hardware it was inherited, it is true that the developer of libinput was the maintainer of synaptics, but he did not originally designed it, and found useless many of it's features that he was forced to maintain for backwards compatibility — with libinput hwas free to drop them, and initially did, but after many complaints has yielded to bring some of them back. synaptics and all the Xorg input drivers are really quite configurable allowing one to even edit the transformation matrix used for pointer acceleration directly, or to manually control the size of the touchpad scroll region, or configure rather præcisely via what criteria palm detection works — Hutterer originally removed this from libinput and considered it unnecessary overkill, but has later restored much of it after complaints, finding that many users indeed used and configured this.
kaba0 6y ago
It is so frustrating dealing with anti-wayland anti-systemd anti-anything that changes the 30 year old status quo and makes linux actually alive instead of bitrotting on old computers.. Wayland is a display server - xorg started out as one as well, but it got extended to such an extant that at one point it contained a printing service as well. Wayland goes back to the base problem - how to display a window on a/many screens - and solves it splendidly. And leaves the rest to the actual desktop environment because it is not display related. UNIX phylosophy is not all that sexy when it is actually useful is it? But wayland developers were clever enough to add a proper extension management system so a client can query what is available and use what’s given. Does implementing wayland by multiple DEs consist of some duplicate work? Sure. Should we not refactor all the technical debt that accumulated over DECADES to the point where a new hardware was introduced? I think the answer is no. And I’m not sure which group is tribalist, the ones who blindly hate on something because - surprisingly - without work there would be nothing, or those who make the new thing usable.

pjmlp 6y ago

Wayland is mostly driven by X.Org Server devs actually.

Blikkentrekker 6y ago
Only insofar that the same developers work on the hardware and input drivers for both, and even frequently share code with one another, libinput also works with Xorg of course, and logind's mechanism for starting an unprivileged compositor was backported to Xorg as well. However, the original designers of the X11 protocol no longer even work on X for the most part, and some of them are dead. And even with the hardware it was inherited, it is true that the developer of libinput was the maintainer of synaptics, but he did not originally designed it, and found useless many of it's features that he was forced to maintain for backwards compatibility — with libinput hwas free to drop them, and initially did, but after many complaints has yielded to bring some of them back. synaptics and all the Xorg input drivers are really quite configurable allowing one to even edit the transformation matrix used for pointer acceleration directly, or to manually control the size of the touchpad scroll region, or configure rather præcisely via what criteria palm detection works — Hutterer originally removed this from libinput and considered it unnecessary overkill, but has later restored much of it after complaints, finding that many users indeed used and configured this.

kaba0 6y ago

It is so frustrating dealing with anti-wayland anti-systemd anti-anything that changes the 30 year old status quo and makes linux actually alive instead of bitrotting on old computers.. Wayland is a display server - xorg started out as one as well, but it got extended to such an extant that at one point it contained a printing service as well. Wayland goes back to the base problem - how to display a window on a/many screens - and solves it splendidly. And leaves the rest to the actual desktop environment because it is not display related. UNIX phylosophy is not all that sexy when it is actually useful is it? But wayland developers were clever enough to add a proper extension management system so a client can query what is available and use what’s given. Does implementing wayland by multiple DEs consist of some duplicate work? Sure. Should we not refactor all the technical debt that accumulated over DECADES to the point where a new hardware was introduced? I think the answer is no. And I’m not sure which group is tribalist, the ones who blindly hate on something because - surprisingly - without work there would be nothing, or those who make the new thing usable.