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Fuzzy logic rice cookers (2016)
- julianlam 6y agoLast time rice cookers were discussed on HN I opined that all you really need is a decent (so, _not_ a $20 model) rice cooker made by a Chinese or Japanese manufacturer (e.g. Tiger), with a simple on-off switch. Mine cooks white rice and brown rice perfectly, although I am supposed to soak the brown rice first (though it's still fine even if I don't). I suppose the only real improvement between my model and the new ones is that perhaps the rice cooker will soak the rice for you. You can vary the amount of water to play with different textures, but once you have it dialed in, it's pretty hands-off. I feel that these manufacturers try to pass off the new-and-shiny only because they have to. The old models last forever. In fact, the only reason why my last rice cooker broke is because gunk got stuck in the switch and it was not able to turn off automatically. In all other respects, the design is as simple and elegant as can be. A single circuit controlling a heating element, which automatically shuts off once a certain temperature threshold is reached. Lastly, for those with one of those fuzzy-logic rice cookers, can you make scorched rice (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_rice https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorched_rice)? I didn't think so :)
- fermentation 6y agoI've used a cheapo Aroma rice cooker for most of my life and I think the rice tastes awesome. I've never questioned what I'm missing out on until I read this article. Sure, the fuzzy-logic sounds like a big selling point, but now I'm questioning how much better the rice actually tastes with the smarts built into these more expense cookers (vs me just thinking the rice is better because more work went into its automated cooking).
- slillibri 6y agoI love my Zojirushi fuzzy logic rice cooker, mainly for the keep-warm. I can put several cups into the cooker and eat off it for several days. Also, yes my cooker has a Scorch setting.
- julianlam 6y agoHah! Well, point taken :) However, I have always been told not to keep rice in the rice cooker for days at a time, for health reasons. If it's warm, I'd imagine it's an even better environment for bacterial/spore growth.
- jjeaff 6y agoI believe it is kept at a high enough temp that bacteria cannot survive.
- ardy42 6y ago> However, I have always been told not to keep rice in the rice cooker for days at a time, for health reasons. If it's warm, I'd imagine it's an even better environment for bacterial/spore growth. IIRC, the reason Zojirushi gives for not keeping rice warm for too long is that it will get yellow and hard. I don't think they mentioned food safety concerns. Mine does have a small vent hole, so I guess the moisture must escape eventually.
- methodsignature 6y agoAn entire continent full of kitchens keeps rice in cookers/warmers for days at a time. There us just no there there.
- doktorhladnjak 6y agoWatch out for Bacillus cereus
- bxparks 6y agoThanks for that tidbit, I had to look it up. This wiki page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_cereus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_cereus) says, "Germination and growth generally occur between 10 °C and 50 °C, though some strains can grow at low temperatures". I just measured the rice in my Zojirushi cooker, and it read 70 °C.
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- throw0101a 6y agoThe Wirecutter had this to say about their main pick (Zojirushi NS-ZCC10, currently US$ 170) > Rice made in the Neuro Fuzzy can seem like a work of art: firm, slender, intact, and milky white. Each grain plumps nicely without bursting and doesn’t seem to break when scooped out of the pot. In our tests, the Neuro Fuzzy was one of the few machines that made sushi rice, brown rice, and long-grain rice all taste great. Of all the machines we tested, this model produced the best basmati, cooking it up light and fluffy. By comparison, our upgrade pick, the Cuckoo CRP-G1015F, made overly moist long-grain white rice. * https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/the-best-rice-cooker/ https://thewirecutter.com/reviews/the-best-rice-cooker/ The main complaint is that it took longer than most other models. They also have a US$ 45 budget pick. America's Test Kitchen / Cook’s Illustrated also has a preferred model (Aroma): * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uABJWCGrFPo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uABJWCGrFPo It's also worth considering whether just getting a multicooker (aka Instant Pot) may be the better option. Given it can also do pressure cooking and act as a slow cooker, the latest models are pretty good jack-of-all trades: * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGLX40ge4zQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGLX40ge4zQ
- dionian 6y agomy zoji has a quick cooking option that makes ok rice, its just not as fluffy as the long way.
- ghaff 6y agoI have a slow cooker, a rice maker, and pressure cooker--none of which I use that much. I'm guessing that an Instant Pot--even if not optimal for at least a couple of those uses--would be a better choice if I were starting over.
- mdturnerphys 6y agoI just bought an Aroma pressure cooker [0] to replace our 15yo Aroma rice cooker that had reached its end of life after multiple uses per week (the cord and the lid latch both broke within a couple months of each other). It does a great job with the rice, but making a meal that requires both a pressure cooker and a rice cooker requires some advance scheduling. [0] https://www.aroma-housewares.com/kitchen/appliances/MTC-8016.html https://www.aroma-housewares.com/kitchen/appliances/MTC-8016...
- turtlebits 6y agoI used to hate brown rice, but my Zojirushi cooker has a "Gaba Brown" setting that pre soaks the rice for 2 hours at 104F. Make brown rice tolerable for me.
- ofrzeta 6y agoI used to think I need to get used to brown rice because it's healthier although I never liked it much. Now that I know that whole grain rice/wheat/... in general contains higher amounts of toxins (for instance arsenic in rice) I can safely consume regular rice and wheat with less of a bad conscience :)
- discordance 6y agosource?
- ofrzeta 6y ago"the concentration of inorganic arsenic is generally higher in brown, compared with white, rice grain" however "the predicted lifetime cancer risk is 34 cases/million for white rice, compared with 5.4 cases/million for brown rice" where "higher risk associated with white rice is primarily a function of the higher consumption of this product." "the predicted lifetime cancer risk from consuming one serving per day of white basmati rice is 82 cases per million, while the predicted cancer risk from consuming one serving per day of brown basmati rice is 139 cases per million." so your mileage may vary https://www.fda.gov/files/food/published/Arsenic-in-Rice-and-Rice-Products-Risk-Assessment-Report-PDF.pdf https://www.fda.gov/files/food/published/Arsenic-in-Rice-and...
- barkingcat 6y agoCooking rice for some large portion of the global population is like cooking pasta noodles, meaning for some people, the fuzzy logic and other advanced features are worth $300+ especially when they cook rice every single day.
- clumsysmurf 6y agoI think what would be interesting, is if a rice cooker not only performed the cooking part well that we all expect, but also percolated the rice to reduce the amount of arsenic in it. https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-uk-rice-breaches-limits-arsenic.html https://medicalxpress.com/news/2020-05-uk-rice-breaches-limi...
- sjg007 6y agoYeah, whoever makes this product will make a lot of money. Another issue is that amount of rice products on the market especially for babies/children. Do those get arsenic testing regularly?
- YeGoblynQueenne 6y agoWell, if we're going to root for the simplest technology, then I have to say that I've never owned a rice cooker, I cook a lot of rice in a pot, brown rice, black rice, red rice, basmati, long-grain, short-grain, etc, and I've never thought I needed a machine to cook it to perfection. Just any random pot with boiling water seems to do the job well most of the time. So why do I need to replace my old pot with a rice-cooking-robot-with-fuzzy-logic (or just a thermostat throwing a switch)? Edit: Of course my random pot can make Persian-style crunchy rice too... :)
- adultSwim 6y agoIt's unclear to me what this has to do with fuzzy logic, other than clever marketing.
- tyingq 6y agoYeah, not seeing it either. The article says this: "In my current fuzzy-logic cooker, however, I tell the machine what kind of rice I’m using and how long it has been soaking. It takes that information and decides what temperature it should reach, and for how long. Generally using what are essentially if/then statements, it can fine-tune the process. For example, it can take into account the surrounding air temperature and turn the heating element up or down to compensate." At best, that's a rules engine. Nothing fuzzy.
- mattxxx 6y agoSame. Perhaps it’s really saying that it’s a rule set they derived with fuzzy logic? Either way, I came to the comments to see if anyone is explaining how it uses/applies fuzzy logic.
- t0mbstone 6y agoI believe it's considered "fuzzy logic" because there is a range that is constantly being imprecisely evaluated and acted upon, eventually arriving at the desired goal. For example, the weight sensor can deduce that water is evaporating from the bowl of rice (because the weight is gradually lifting), but it doesn't exactly know how much weight is rice and how much of it is water until near the end.
- jacques_chester 6y ago> At best, that's a rules engine. Nothing fuzzy. It is a rule engine, with fuzzy rules. The advantage is that it's easy to express vague rules in a clear way: "if the rice is too hot, stop the heater", vs "if sensor a > 0.44 and sensor b < 3.19 and sensor c >= 0.33 ...". It disentangles the rules operating on linguistic variables from the functions which express those values.
- 6y ago
- kurthr 6y agoKind of odd to have this here and arguments about the accuracy using "gradient descent" vs "back propagation" both on the same HN front page. Fuzzy Logic is mostly a marketing term, and although it may still exist other machine learning/estimation tools exist that seem to completely subsume it. If I remember correctly some fundamental aspects of fuzzy-set theory are still unproven and possibly shown undecidable. To be honest this is more a hearkening back to the 90s retro take on The Beloved Old Fuzzy Logic of yesteryear and ignoring it's rot of irrelevance than any actual evaluation of the technology... "The smartest appliance I have ever owned". A spring and a magnet do almost as well.
- jacques_chester 6y ago> Fuzzy Logic is mostly a marketing term And it's a terrible marketing term. If it had been called "continuum logic" instead, there'd probably be much less disdain.
- djur 6y agoThe number of people I've heard mention "fuzzy logic" when lauding their Zojirushi rice cookers would suggest that it is at least a very memorable marketing term.
- jacques_chester 6y agoThey would've lauded "continuum logic" just as heartily. But everyone else sees "fuzzy logic" and immediately makes jokes or dismisses it out of hand. Names matter.
- jerf 6y ago"If I remember correctly some fundamental aspects of fuzzy-set theory are still unproven and possibly shown undecidable." If I remember correctly, and I may not, fuzzy logic fell out of mathematical interest when it was proved all fuzzy logic statements can be converted into conventional logic statements without loss, by adding some additional terms representing various ranges of values, e.g., if we have a sensor $T that senses the temperature in a range from 0.0 - 1.0, the fuzzy statement if $T > .6 then TurnOffBurner else TurnOnBurner can be converted to the conventional-logic statements $TAbove0.6 -> TurnOffBurner $TBelow0.6 -> TurnOnBurner With the obvious mapping of what the two values on the left are. Proving that the entire logic can be so converted is less trivial as the statements interact but IIRC it was done. The whole hype of fuzzy logic is, well, how it was presented in this article, that it could somehow deal with the real world better than conventional logic. The proof that there was nothing it could say that conventional logic couldn't ended that conclusively. However, it can still be a useful "programming API", for obvious reasons. But then, you don't really need a specialized "fuzzy logic" necessarily, for a lot of tasks, a big set of if statements based on non-boolean values (which, you know, are easy to come by in programming languages) does the same job. While expressing it directly in fuzzy logic might open up some mathematical analysis possibilities, expressing it in conventional programming languages opens up a lot of software engineering possibilities, so shrug. This is just another expression of the decades-long and ongoing arguments about how mathematical programming really is.
- yutopia 6y ago"Fuzzy" rice cookers have been around for decades, I (and my parents, and pretty much everyone I know) have always regarded it as a marketing slogan. That's not to say high-end rice cookers aren't worth it, there's a world of difference between a $100 and $500 rice cooker. Not sure how best to explain this, but rice from a cheap cooker looks and feels like a dense, gooey chunk, whereas rice from a high-end cooker forms a complex, airy 3D structure with a distinctive sheen; individual grains still retain their shape, and there's ample space between them resulting in a well-defined but light texture.
- tangjurine 6y agoUmmm that just sounds like the wash wasn't washed a lot before cooking in the first case, right?
- xnx 6y agoAre there $100 or $500 commercial units? The best reviewed rice cooker by America's Test Kitchen is $30.
- yutopia 6y agoYes! Just checked, and the most popular model on kakaku.com (Japanese price comparison site) right now is around $300. Ours was around $400, maybe not the best but we're pretty satisfied with it.
- selimthegrim 6y agoI'm pretty happy with the rice from my $140 Aroma multicooker. I can even get away with only one cup min if I need to instead of two but quality suffers a little
- eps 6y agoThere are even $1000 models, pressure-cooking claypot models whereby the pot has a layer of metal sandwiched in clay and is heated up by induction. Good stuff. Luckily, not sold where I am, so it's not even an option :)
- Rendello 6y agoI started using the old-fashioned analogue rice cooker after watching Technology Connection's video on how they work. The principle is clever: liquids at boiling point stay at boiling point, since any additional heat energy is used to change their state from liquid to gas. When the temperature does rise above 100°C, that means there is no liquid left in the cooker, and so rice must be done. It then switches off the high heat and runs in "warm" mode. 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSTNhvDGbYI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSTNhvDGbYI
- dehrmann 6y agoIt's more clever than just this, though. My Zojirushi rice cooker has a timer, so it seems to know how far along the process is and speed it up...or it lies, pads the cook time by 10 min, and keeps it warm.
- shalmanese 6y agoThis Thai cooking Youtuber did a blind taste test between the Aroma rice cooker and the Zojirushi Fuzzy Logic cooker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YBYm8FTXro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YBYm8FTXro TL;DR: The differences are detectable but not huge. If you eat plenty of rice, it's plausibly worth the upgrade but it's not life changing.
- bonniemuffin 6y agoOne key factor is the kind of rice. In my experience, the difference in brown rice is bigger than in white rice, so if you usually eat brown rice, you'll get more benefit from upgrading to a Zojirushi rice cooker. It's easy to make good-enough white rice, but making good brown rice is hard.
- hden 6y agoYou can still simulate the old ways without electrical circuits. Just put one of these seemingly primordial devices on your stove and adjust the heat and time to your likening. http://www.umic-all.com/products/kinsei_kamadaki/index.html http://www.umic-all.com/products/kinsei_kamadaki/index.html
- k_sze 6y agoAnd did you know that rice cookers can be used not only to cook rice or congee? They are also very good at reheating all kinds of bread, in a way that you simply can't achieve in a conventional oven. Just stick your baguette or whatever in there, sprinkle a bit of water at the bottom if you want (not on the bread), and hit the cook button. When the rice cooker says it's done, you get back the most amazing reheated bread.
- ramphastidae 6y agoYou can even bake a cake!
- known 6y agoI own Zojirushi NS-ZAH18 model; Sad thing this rice cooker parts are unavailable now;
- whywhywhywhy 6y agoMy fuzzy logic rice cooker is one of the electronic purchases that has brought me the most joy in the past 10 years. Every time I use it I'm always surprised just how nice the rice tastes out of it.
- larzang 6y ago$125 for my zoji that I've used at least 4 times a week for the last decade is significant value that you just don't see out of most appliances anymore. I'm more impressed by the reliability than the cooking tech (though it makes wonderful rice of course).
- rwmj 6y agoNonsense about "fuzzy logic" aside, Zojirushi rice cookers are great. I currently own two, plus a third Tiger rice cooker that I use for making black garlic. One of my Zojirushi rice cookers is also a mochi maker (BS-ED10-WA). Fresh mochi in the morning is fantastic. You have to be able to buy the special mochi rice - I once tried English pudding rice but it didn't work.
- steve_adams_86 6y agoI have a zojirushi cooker that has served me well for nearly 10 years with no signs of giving up. I use it for all kinds of stuff, all the time. I spent around $250 CAD on it 8 years ago, and considering how convenient and high quality its results are it has been great value. If it broke I’d do a bit of research to see how he market has changed, but I suspect I’d end up buying another zojirushi. Maybe even the same model.
- ramraj07 6y agoFor anyone from India, have you found any fuzzy logic or above average rice cookers here? Everyone eats rice and most homes have rice cookers, and yet it's impossible to find a zhojirushi. Only cheap shitty local brand cookers seem to be available here (except via shady sellers from Amazon)!
- justusthane 6y agoSomewhat off-topic, but I find that Zoji Neuro Fuzzy rice cooker linked in the article[1] extraordinarily ugly — it looks more like a medical device than a kitchen appliance to me. It's interesting to me that while Japanese design is generally very much appreciated and admired in the west, there are some areas where their design just doesn't translate to western aesthetics — and, at least to an outsider's perspective, seems almost an antithesis to the idea of Japanese design. I'm thinking also of the recent article [2] about Japanese web design. 1: http://www.zojirushi.com/app/product/nszcc http://www.zojirushi.com/app/product/nszcc 2: https://randomwire.com/why-japanese-web-design-is-so-different/ https://randomwire.com/why-japanese-web-design-is-so-differe...
- howlgarnish 6y agoThe Western kitchen aesthetic is very industrial: bulky appliances of stainless steel, maybe a dab of glossy paint. The KitchenAid mixer is a classic example: https://www.kitchenaid.sg/countertop-appliances/stand-mixers.html https://www.kitchenaid.sg/countertop-appliances/stand-mixers... But in space-constrained Japan, easy to clean white plastic is standard and the hydrocephalic robot look (like the example you link to) considered high-tech.
- fomine3 6y agoTo be fair, it's cheapest product on lineup. I don't know expensive one is better design or not.
- porknubbins 6y agoWell recent high end rice cooker design has trended towards black square designs like this $500 Hitachi https://www.amazon.co.jp/日立-圧力スチームIHジャー炊飯器（5-5合炊き）-フロストブラックHITACHI-圧力スチーム-RZ-W100CM-K/dp/B07TQHDYMS/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?dchild=1&keywords=炊飯器&qid=1608611106&refinements=p_n_price_fma%3A401054011&rnid=401049011&s=home&sr=1-2 https://www.amazon.co.jp/日立-圧力スチームIHジャー炊飯器（5-5合炊き）-フロストブラックH... but in general there are lots of ugly plastic objects in Japan. I think the design elements we appreciate in the West is a subset filtered through tastemakers who brought it over.
- huhtenberg 6y agoTangentially related - does anyone have any experience cooking basmati rice in newer Zojirushi (Micom/IH models)? I've been looking at getting one and the info varies, even the official one for the same model! I can do it on a stove top, not an issue, just wanted to kill two birds with one stone. Also, while at it - any opinions on the pressure cooking mode in NP-NWC/NVC models? Looks tempting... but gimmicky at the same time.
- t0mbstone 6y agoI have a Zojirushi rice cooker and basmati rice is practically the only type of rice I ever eat. It's basically the same as cooking white rice, although it takes a bit more water. Do a batch or two as an experiment. Cook it like it's white rice, and if it comes out too dry, experiment with adding a bit more water next time you cook it. Eventually you will figure out the ideal water line for your taste preferences. You just have to remember it!
- TRcontrarian 6y agoI cook costco basmati in my zoji on the 'white' and 'harder' setting and it comes out fine. Less aromatic than my preferred jasmine rice but still great, distinct firm grains.
- abecode 6y agoIf you're mainly cooking basmati rice, you might have a look at a Persian rice cooker, e.g. https://www.amazon.com/pars-khazar-rice-cooker/s?k=pars+khazar+rice+cooker https://www.amazon.com/pars-khazar-rice-cooker/s?k=pars+khaz... . I don't believe it's fuzzy logic based, but it's designed to have butter or oil added and has a setting for a crispy bottom.
- nausher81 6y agoI've been having Indian Basmati rice cooked in a Zojirushi Micom rice cooker and it's been great. I feel like I have to add a little more water than the official measure to get it to be a little more softer. I've also added tempering i.e. Tadka - oil/ghee with cumin into the cooker after adding rice and water and the rice comes out fragrant and fluffy would recommend it.
- robga 6y agoMy zojirushi is my favourite device I’ve bought this decade. I squeezed it into carry on at SIN. Next: my 10kg plastic asvel rice dispenser. “Indispensable”.
- Havoc 6y agoI have a fancy zoji. The main draw for me is that I don’t need to babysit it. ie Switches to keep warm and stay that way for hours without ruining the rice Meanwhile I nearly electrocuted myself with a cheap one off amazon.