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The difference here is that if you lose your job in European countries with great social security, you still have a salary you get by fine on. And hospital sta

The difference here is that if you lose your job in European countries with great social security, you still have a salary you get by fine on. And hospital stays do not bankrupt you, or even make a dent. Even with «great» insurance in the US, there are all these edge cases and loopholes, stuff they will not cover. Where I live I never have to worry about these things, I do not even have to put aside money for rainy days (though I do, just because I make more than I spend).

burntoutfire 6y ago
In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom. The system is constructed so that you give your whole life to it in return for the security and comfort. Whereas in US, you can save enough to escape the system before you're old. From what I'm reading, even just regular engineers (not software) in the US often retire at 55 or 58, as they have saved enough by then. Compare that to the retirement age of 65-69 through most of Western Europe.
- erikbye 6y ago
  While that is true to an extent, I think you have to factor in (as far as quality of life goes) the amount of living people do in Europe before they retire. Many work only 37,5 hour weeks, and they have yearly five weeks paid holiday. And statistics like millionaires per capita show that it is definitely possible to achieve financial freedom in Europe, too. Though US is ahead, except for Switzerland, of course.
- GordonS 6y ago
  > In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom That's not true. I'm almost 40, and excluding pensions and capital tied up in my home, I currently have around £500,000 in savings. This wasn't particularly difficult to achieve on a software engineer salary in Scotland; we've travelled the globe for several years, have a nice house, 2 cars etc. We absolutely plan on retiring at around 50 at latest. Now with 20 years' experience I make €65k/y from my day job as a software architect/tech lead/lead dev (working 30h in a 4-day week). My wife and I also run a B2B micro-ISV that's made around €100k/y for the past few years (it was a slow climb to that figure over 10 years). So, we have a household income of around €165k (~$200k) - certainly more than most in the UK, yet nowhere near what I could make in SV on my own - and still certainly enough money that we hardly need to think about it, and with considered financial planning we can easily retire early. I'd far prefer to live in Europe than the US - I work way less hours, I get way more vacation days, our healthcare system won't bankrupt us (unfortunately I know firsthand it's far from perfect, but it's definitely still a boon for society), losing my job at any point in my career wouldn't have me out on the street, I don't need to especially fear the police, and (in general) people have a progressive attitude that serves to benefit all of society.
  - wolco2 6y ago
    Your B2B makes most twice as much as your daily salary. Would it make sense to quit your day job and invest your time in the B2B?
    - GordonS 6y ago
      It's not quite as easy a decision as it looks, as the job has a great pension (they put in 2x what I do), and the B2B is very reliant on a very small number of customers. But, still, yes - 2021 is finally going to be the year where I quit to focus on the business!
  - pc86 6y ago
    By your own statements isn't this an outlier? You're only in the position you're in because you own a business and have a pension where your employer is contributing 2/3 of the value. How much of that 500k EUR savings is from the business revenue? Wouldn't it be a more appropriate comparison to look at someone with an "average" pension (whatever that may be for Scotland) and no business revenue?
    - GordonS 6y ago
      > Wouldn't it be a more appropriate comparison to look at someone with an "average" pension We're discussing salary of software engineers, firstly because this is HN, and secondly because software engineer salaries in the US are an outlier. Also as I mentioned in my original comment, the figures I gave don't include our pensions at all (as an aside, 55 is the earliest you can currently take anything from private penions in the UK), so I think the comparison is valid enough. If my wife also had a job as a salaried software engineer, instead of working on our business, our combined income would likely be around €105k, which is still more than enough to be able to live very well and save a lot of money at the same time, as long as you are financially savvy.
      - pc86 6y ago
        Yes but your plans to retire at 50 are certainly taking your pension into account, no? Or could someone survive in Scotland on $500k? I'm not sure what the investment landscape is there but in the US $500k will only get you about $20k/yr on conservative withdrawal schedules.

burntoutfire 6y ago

In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom. The system is constructed so that you give your whole life to it in return for the security and comfort. Whereas in US, you can save enough to escape the system before you're old. From what I'm reading, even just regular engineers (not software) in the US often retire at 55 or 58, as they have saved enough by then. Compare that to the retirement age of 65-69 through most of Western Europe.

erikbye 6y ago
While that is true to an extent, I think you have to factor in (as far as quality of life goes) the amount of living people do in Europe before they retire. Many work only 37,5 hour weeks, and they have yearly five weeks paid holiday. And statistics like millionaires per capita show that it is definitely possible to achieve financial freedom in Europe, too. Though US is ahead, except for Switzerland, of course.
GordonS 6y ago
> In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom That's not true. I'm almost 40, and excluding pensions and capital tied up in my home, I currently have around £500,000 in savings. This wasn't particularly difficult to achieve on a software engineer salary in Scotland; we've travelled the globe for several years, have a nice house, 2 cars etc. We absolutely plan on retiring at around 50 at latest. Now with 20 years' experience I make €65k/y from my day job as a software architect/tech lead/lead dev (working 30h in a 4-day week). My wife and I also run a B2B micro-ISV that's made around €100k/y for the past few years (it was a slow climb to that figure over 10 years). So, we have a household income of around €165k (~$200k) - certainly more than most in the UK, yet nowhere near what I could make in SV on my own - and still certainly enough money that we hardly need to think about it, and with considered financial planning we can easily retire early. I'd far prefer to live in Europe than the US - I work way less hours, I get way more vacation days, our healthcare system won't bankrupt us (unfortunately I know firsthand it's far from perfect, but it's definitely still a boon for society), losing my job at any point in my career wouldn't have me out on the street, I don't need to especially fear the police, and (in general) people have a progressive attitude that serves to benefit all of society.
- wolco2 6y ago
  Your B2B makes most twice as much as your daily salary. Would it make sense to quit your day job and invest your time in the B2B?
  - GordonS 6y ago
    It's not quite as easy a decision as it looks, as the job has a great pension (they put in 2x what I do), and the B2B is very reliant on a very small number of customers. But, still, yes - 2021 is finally going to be the year where I quit to focus on the business!
- pc86 6y ago
  By your own statements isn't this an outlier? You're only in the position you're in because you own a business and have a pension where your employer is contributing 2/3 of the value. How much of that 500k EUR savings is from the business revenue? Wouldn't it be a more appropriate comparison to look at someone with an "average" pension (whatever that may be for Scotland) and no business revenue?
  - GordonS 6y ago
    > Wouldn't it be a more appropriate comparison to look at someone with an "average" pension We're discussing salary of software engineers, firstly because this is HN, and secondly because software engineer salaries in the US are an outlier. Also as I mentioned in my original comment, the figures I gave don't include our pensions at all (as an aside, 55 is the earliest you can currently take anything from private penions in the UK), so I think the comparison is valid enough. If my wife also had a job as a salaried software engineer, instead of working on our business, our combined income would likely be around €105k, which is still more than enough to be able to live very well and save a lot of money at the same time, as long as you are financially savvy.
    - pc86 6y ago
      Yes but your plans to retire at 50 are certainly taking your pension into account, no? Or could someone survive in Scotland on $500k? I'm not sure what the investment landscape is there but in the US $500k will only get you about $20k/yr on conservative withdrawal schedules.