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[ deleted my original reply - sorry I thought you were replying to another one of my posts ] True, you probably work harder and are more stressed in the US, bu

[ deleted my original reply - sorry I thought you were replying to another one of my posts ] True, you probably work harder and are more stressed in the US, but at least you have an option to retire early there on your savings. In the EU, I suspect most developers have very little savings and plan to just work until old age and state pension kicks in.

NicoJuicy 6y ago
Where I live, we are record savers ( Belgium). Everyone can go on pension at 56 ( much lower pension though) and can have a break for multiple years if they want, during their active career, that's not possible in the US. I have 1 year to go for being debt free ( included buying a house) at 32 age. I also thought it was US citizens that didn't save money? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/3433488/5280965/KS-SF-09-029-EN.PDF/69f10fe1-9252-423e-bd06-703bc6c8bbd1&ved=2ahUKEwi8spf8ud3tAhVKzRoKHa3cAt4QFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3U8NQYZyWU67L645mht269 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... Even then, Europe catched up with productivity and some even doubled it vs. the US ( quoting : https://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/interview/mit-professor-challenges-perceptions-of-us-vs-eu-productivity/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/intervi... ) > Hours worked does not mean more productive.
- burntoutfire 6y ago
  I once got a contract offer from Belgium and checked your taxes. They are something like 55% for anything over 60k EUR per year? It means that, even if you get a high paying job, literally most of the money gets taken away. Seem rather hard to save significant amounts in such conditions.
  - NicoJuicy 6y ago
    Cost of living is lower? 600€/ month was enough to pay off my house loan. Leaves plenty of room to save money. I literally save like 3-4/5ths, i do think that's more than average though. Renting a place here would be 300-900€/month. I know someone who rents at 250€/month in the city with a decent house ( that's an edge case though) Note: I'm paying off my loan early.
    - pc86 6y ago
      And there are places in the US where modest homes in good areas are $90-100k and will get you a similar payment even with less than 20% down. I'm not sure what your point is?
acdha 6y ago
> In the EU, I suspect most developers have very little savings and plan to just work until old age and state pension kicks in. This is also true of developers in the US. The number of lucky ones who can retire significantly early is a tiny fraction of the market — but companies have very successfully used those dreams to get lots of free overtime from people who didn’t notice where most of the money ends up. FAANG developers do well but even there early retirement is not a reliable plan.
- burntoutfire 6y ago
  That must be due to lifestyle inflation? If you don't save anything on a $100k+ salary, you have only yourself to blame (assuming the savings weren't wiped by medical bills or some other calamity). I suspect these people prioritize their McMansion, changing family cars every 3-5 years or funding fancy out-of-state schools for their children over freedom from work.
  - acdha 6y ago
    Have you looked at the cost if living in the Bay Area since 1990? $100k is not exactly buying you a high-end lifestyle involving private schools in a city where under something like $120k qualifies a family as low-income. Both parents in high-income jobs gets closer but then you’re talking about additional expenses like housecleaning, nannies, dining out, and probably multiple cars. SF is an extreme but most of the high paying tech jobs cluster in areas which are closer to that cost of living - doing well, sure, but far from rich and definitely not able to count on being set for life since one illness, untimely layoff, etc. can easily derail a career. That’s not to say that there aren’t ways to economize but there’s a long history of lazy editorializing about how kids these days are spending too much on avocado toast while studiously ignoring the data showing that the big problems are healthcare, housing, student loans, etc.
    - pc86 6y ago
      The Bay Area is an outlier as one of the most expensive locals in the world to live in. The median developer salary in the US is somewhere around $100-110k, and the vast majority of those people live outside of SF/NYC and work for boring companies doing boring forms-over-data work. You can save a shitload of money in Iowa making $95k/yr.
wreath 6y ago
State pension won't be nearly enough to cover your living standards. You'd still pay insurance (less than before retirement though) and taxes off your pension. You still have to save on your own or go with an additional private pension scheme in Germany to somewhat be able to keep same living standards.
- GordonS 6y ago
  This is true, state pension is enough to survive, but not enough to live. You should absolutely put money into work/personal pensions while you are young.

NicoJuicy 6y ago

Where I live, we are record savers ( Belgium). Everyone can go on pension at 56 ( much lower pension though) and can have a break for multiple years if they want, during their active career, that's not possible in the US. I have 1 year to go for being debt free ( included buying a house) at 32 age. I also thought it was US citizens that didn't save money? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/3433488/5280965/KS-SF-09-029-EN.PDF/69f10fe1-9252-423e-bd06-703bc6c8bbd1&ved=2ahUKEwi8spf8ud3tAhVKzRoKHa3cAt4QFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3U8NQYZyWU67L645mht269 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... Even then, Europe catched up with productivity and some even doubled it vs. the US ( quoting : https://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/interview/mit-professor-challenges-perceptions-of-us-vs-eu-productivity/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/intervi... ) > Hours worked does not mean more productive.

burntoutfire 6y ago
I once got a contract offer from Belgium and checked your taxes. They are something like 55% for anything over 60k EUR per year? It means that, even if you get a high paying job, literally most of the money gets taken away. Seem rather hard to save significant amounts in such conditions.
- NicoJuicy 6y ago
  Cost of living is lower? 600€/ month was enough to pay off my house loan. Leaves plenty of room to save money. I literally save like 3-4/5ths, i do think that's more than average though. Renting a place here would be 300-900€/month. I know someone who rents at 250€/month in the city with a decent house ( that's an edge case though) Note: I'm paying off my loan early.
  - pc86 6y ago
    And there are places in the US where modest homes in good areas are $90-100k and will get you a similar payment even with less than 20% down. I'm not sure what your point is?

acdha 6y ago

> In the EU, I suspect most developers have very little savings and plan to just work until old age and state pension kicks in. This is also true of developers in the US. The number of lucky ones who can retire significantly early is a tiny fraction of the market — but companies have very successfully used those dreams to get lots of free overtime from people who didn’t notice where most of the money ends up. FAANG developers do well but even there early retirement is not a reliable plan.

burntoutfire 6y ago
That must be due to lifestyle inflation? If you don't save anything on a $100k+ salary, you have only yourself to blame (assuming the savings weren't wiped by medical bills or some other calamity). I suspect these people prioritize their McMansion, changing family cars every 3-5 years or funding fancy out-of-state schools for their children over freedom from work.
- acdha 6y ago
  Have you looked at the cost if living in the Bay Area since 1990? $100k is not exactly buying you a high-end lifestyle involving private schools in a city where under something like $120k qualifies a family as low-income. Both parents in high-income jobs gets closer but then you’re talking about additional expenses like housecleaning, nannies, dining out, and probably multiple cars. SF is an extreme but most of the high paying tech jobs cluster in areas which are closer to that cost of living - doing well, sure, but far from rich and definitely not able to count on being set for life since one illness, untimely layoff, etc. can easily derail a career. That’s not to say that there aren’t ways to economize but there’s a long history of lazy editorializing about how kids these days are spending too much on avocado toast while studiously ignoring the data showing that the big problems are healthcare, housing, student loans, etc.
  - pc86 6y ago
    The Bay Area is an outlier as one of the most expensive locals in the world to live in. The median developer salary in the US is somewhere around $100-110k, and the vast majority of those people live outside of SF/NYC and work for boring companies doing boring forms-over-data work. You can save a shitload of money in Iowa making $95k/yr.

wreath 6y ago

State pension won't be nearly enough to cover your living standards. You'd still pay insurance (less than before retirement though) and taxes off your pension. You still have to save on your own or go with an additional private pension scheme in Germany to somewhat be able to keep same living standards.

GordonS 6y ago
This is true, state pension is enough to survive, but not enough to live. You should absolutely put money into work/personal pensions while you are young.