3 ms·

Also the part where they keep lying there starving and dying, but by springtime the survivors can be observed lying in the sun. And the story makes it sound lik

by yorwba 6y ago

Also the part where they keep lying there starving and dying, but by springtime the survivors can be observed lying in the sun. And the story makes it sound like a yearly occurrence. Either the starvation wasn't quite as deadly, or new people kept moving to that strip of land, only to end up dying in winter.

julianmarq 6y ago
But the comment I replied to said this: > "people in border villages go up in mountain caves during the winter, and basically lie down there, starving and dying" to be a horror story It didn't include all the other things you mentioned. Only the part in quotes seemed to be enough for GP to deem it as a suspect horror story.
- the_af 6y ago
  But it's the whole story and its trappings what matters. Basically what yorwba said: that this is a cyclic, almost ritual yearly dying that wouldn't be out of place in a horror movie, with the villagers resignedly going up the mountain to a cave to lie down and die, but that somehow there are enough survivors when winter ends, seen "lying in the sun". I didn't think it was necessary to spell everything out, but the whole story seems like a horror story. Needless to say, there's nothing unusual or unbelievable about people dying of starvation.
  - mannykannot 6y ago
    > ...almost ritual yearly dying... Now you are depending on an absurdly literal reading of the tale to exaggerate its implausibility. It is a well-established fact that North Korea suffered several years of famine in the mid 90s, with at least 1/4 million fatalities and probably much higher, arising from a combination of the loss of economic support from the former USSR, El Niño and a kleptocratic bureaucracy. In such circumstances, it would not be that implausible if some peasants reverted to the winter survival techniques used by millenia of nomads and subsistence farmers. As for lying in the sun: if you are cold, famished, and have exhausted all the new-grown food that the spring has produced so far, then perhaps it is the best you can do.
    - yorwba 6y ago
      > it would not be that implausible if some peasants reverted to the winter survival techniques used by millenia of nomads and subsistence farmers. Sure, that would be very plausible. Stocking up a cave with food, keeping a small fire going inside with whatever flammable material is available, eating little and sleeping a lot to make the food last longer... Not quite the same as the original story, though.
      - mannykannot 6y ago
        > Not quite the same as the original story, though. You are doing the same as the_af here: nitpicking over the exact phrasing of the story in order to avoid realistically evaluating its credibility. Anecdotes are not theorems, invalidated by one infidelity. Your objections are pedantic and irrelevant to the author's purpose in relating it. Furhermore: > Stocking up a cave with food... According to the driver, the women would reportedly illegally cross the river to prostitute themselves in China before the winter to obtain rice to survive. >... keeping a small fire going inside with whatever flammable material is available... and the nearby land so denuded of firewood that they would otherwise freeze to death. >...eating little and sleeping a lot to make the food last longer. Well, yes - that was apparently the point of relating this anecdote. As we can see, the story as presented is close to what you consider plausible, especially as we know there actually was a severe multi-year famine in North Korea not so long ago.
        yorwba 6y ago
        > Anecdotes are not theorems, invalidated by one infidelity. Your objections are pedantic and irrelevant to the author's purpose in relating it. The author posted it in a comment on an article about Neanderthals who might have had the ability, never before observed in humans, to slow their base metabolic rate to withstand extreme cold. And they suggested those North Koreans were likely doing the same. In my modified version, their body temperature stays within the normal range and they're conserving energy by limiting movement, but their base metabolism stays the same and they still have to eat regularly, i.e. they're not hibernating. Maybe that's just "nitpicking over the exact phrasing of the story", but it's also the only way in which the story is relevant to TFA.

by yorwba 6y ago

julianmarq 6y ago

But the comment I replied to said this: > "people in border villages go up in mountain caves during the winter, and basically lie down there, starving and dying" to be a horror story It didn't include all the other things you mentioned. Only the part in quotes seemed to be enough for GP to deem it as a suspect horror story.

the_af 6y ago
But it's the whole story and its trappings what matters. Basically what yorwba said: that this is a cyclic, almost ritual yearly dying that wouldn't be out of place in a horror movie, with the villagers resignedly going up the mountain to a cave to lie down and die, but that somehow there are enough survivors when winter ends, seen "lying in the sun". I didn't think it was necessary to spell everything out, but the whole story seems like a horror story. Needless to say, there's nothing unusual or unbelievable about people dying of starvation.
- mannykannot 6y ago
  > ...almost ritual yearly dying... Now you are depending on an absurdly literal reading of the tale to exaggerate its implausibility. It is a well-established fact that North Korea suffered several years of famine in the mid 90s, with at least 1/4 million fatalities and probably much higher, arising from a combination of the loss of economic support from the former USSR, El Niño and a kleptocratic bureaucracy. In such circumstances, it would not be that implausible if some peasants reverted to the winter survival techniques used by millenia of nomads and subsistence farmers. As for lying in the sun: if you are cold, famished, and have exhausted all the new-grown food that the spring has produced so far, then perhaps it is the best you can do.
  - yorwba 6y ago
    > it would not be that implausible if some peasants reverted to the winter survival techniques used by millenia of nomads and subsistence farmers. Sure, that would be very plausible. Stocking up a cave with food, keeping a small fire going inside with whatever flammable material is available, eating little and sleeping a lot to make the food last longer... Not quite the same as the original story, though.
    - mannykannot 6y ago
      > Not quite the same as the original story, though. You are doing the same as the_af here: nitpicking over the exact phrasing of the story in order to avoid realistically evaluating its credibility. Anecdotes are not theorems, invalidated by one infidelity. Your objections are pedantic and irrelevant to the author's purpose in relating it. Furhermore: > Stocking up a cave with food... According to the driver, the women would reportedly illegally cross the river to prostitute themselves in China before the winter to obtain rice to survive. >... keeping a small fire going inside with whatever flammable material is available... and the nearby land so denuded of firewood that they would otherwise freeze to death. >...eating little and sleeping a lot to make the food last longer. Well, yes - that was apparently the point of relating this anecdote. As we can see, the story as presented is close to what you consider plausible, especially as we know there actually was a severe multi-year famine in North Korea not so long ago.
      - yorwba 6y ago
        > Anecdotes are not theorems, invalidated by one infidelity. Your objections are pedantic and irrelevant to the author's purpose in relating it. The author posted it in a comment on an article about Neanderthals who might have had the ability, never before observed in humans, to slow their base metabolic rate to withstand extreme cold. And they suggested those North Koreans were likely doing the same. In my modified version, their body temperature stays within the normal range and they're conserving energy by limiting movement, but their base metabolism stays the same and they still have to eat regularly, i.e. they're not hibernating. Maybe that's just "nitpicking over the exact phrasing of the story", but it's also the only way in which the story is relevant to TFA.