8 ms·

That may be the case, but as a software dev in the US, you're actually the beneficiary (via your very high salary) of the dog-eat-dog market economics that domi

That may be the case, but as a software dev in the US, you're actually the beneficiary (via your very high salary) of the dog-eat-dog market economics that dominate the US. Whereas in Europe, as a developer you're just expected to be content with a mediocre salary, like everybody else. The only escape out of it (in Europe) seems to be the contracting market for senior people, where the rates are on par with US non-FAANG salaries.

erikbye 6y ago
The difference here is that if you lose your job in European countries with great social security, you still have a salary you get by fine on. And hospital stays do not bankrupt you, or even make a dent. Even with «great» insurance in the US, there are all these edge cases and loopholes, stuff they will not cover. Where I live I never have to worry about these things, I do not even have to put aside money for rainy days (though I do, just because I make more than I spend).
- burntoutfire 6y ago
  In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom. The system is constructed so that you give your whole life to it in return for the security and comfort. Whereas in US, you can save enough to escape the system before you're old. From what I'm reading, even just regular engineers (not software) in the US often retire at 55 or 58, as they have saved enough by then. Compare that to the retirement age of 65-69 through most of Western Europe.
  - erikbye 6y ago
    While that is true to an extent, I think you have to factor in (as far as quality of life goes) the amount of living people do in Europe before they retire. Many work only 37,5 hour weeks, and they have yearly five weeks paid holiday. And statistics like millionaires per capita show that it is definitely possible to achieve financial freedom in Europe, too. Though US is ahead, except for Switzerland, of course.
  - GordonS 6y ago
    > In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom That's not true. I'm almost 40, and excluding pensions and capital tied up in my home, I currently have around £500,000 in savings. This wasn't particularly difficult to achieve on a software engineer salary in Scotland; we've travelled the globe for several years, have a nice house, 2 cars etc. We absolutely plan on retiring at around 50 at latest. Now with 20 years' experience I make €65k/y from my day job as a software architect/tech lead/lead dev (working 30h in a 4-day week). My wife and I also run a B2B micro-ISV that's made around €100k/y for the past few years (it was a slow climb to that figure over 10 years). So, we have a household income of around €165k (~$200k) - certainly more than most in the UK, yet nowhere near what I could make in SV on my own - and still certainly enough money that we hardly need to think about it, and with considered financial planning we can easily retire early. I'd far prefer to live in Europe than the US - I work way less hours, I get way more vacation days, our healthcare system won't bankrupt us (unfortunately I know firsthand it's far from perfect, but it's definitely still a boon for society), losing my job at any point in my career wouldn't have me out on the street, I don't need to especially fear the police, and (in general) people have a progressive attitude that serves to benefit all of society.
    - wolco2 6y ago
      Your B2B makes most twice as much as your daily salary. Would it make sense to quit your day job and invest your time in the B2B?
      - GordonS 6y ago
        It's not quite as easy a decision as it looks, as the job has a great pension (they put in 2x what I do), and the B2B is very reliant on a very small number of customers. But, still, yes - 2021 is finally going to be the year where I quit to focus on the business!
    - pc86 6y ago
      By your own statements isn't this an outlier? You're only in the position you're in because you own a business and have a pension where your employer is contributing 2/3 of the value. How much of that 500k EUR savings is from the business revenue? Wouldn't it be a more appropriate comparison to look at someone with an "average" pension (whatever that may be for Scotland) and no business revenue?
NicoJuicy 6y ago
I'm not sure if you take work/life balance into respect. You can have all the money of the world, but if you're only enjoying it at >60 years it's too late.
- burntoutfire 6y ago
  [ deleted my original reply - sorry I thought you were replying to another one of my posts ] True, you probably work harder and are more stressed in the US, but at least you have an option to retire early there on your savings. In the EU, I suspect most developers have very little savings and plan to just work until old age and state pension kicks in.
  - NicoJuicy 6y ago
    Where I live, we are record savers ( Belgium). Everyone can go on pension at 56 ( much lower pension though) and can have a break for multiple years if they want, during their active career, that's not possible in the US. I have 1 year to go for being debt free ( included buying a house) at 32 age. I also thought it was US citizens that didn't save money? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/3433488/5280965/KS-SF-09-029-EN.PDF/69f10fe1-9252-423e-bd06-703bc6c8bbd1&ved=2ahUKEwi8spf8ud3tAhVKzRoKHa3cAt4QFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3U8NQYZyWU67L645mht269 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... Even then, Europe catched up with productivity and some even doubled it vs. the US ( quoting : https://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/interview/mit-professor-challenges-perceptions-of-us-vs-eu-productivity/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/intervi... ) > Hours worked does not mean more productive.
    - burntoutfire 6y ago
      I once got a contract offer from Belgium and checked your taxes. They are something like 55% for anything over 60k EUR per year? It means that, even if you get a high paying job, literally most of the money gets taken away. Seem rather hard to save significant amounts in such conditions.

erikbye 6y ago

The difference here is that if you lose your job in European countries with great social security, you still have a salary you get by fine on. And hospital stays do not bankrupt you, or even make a dent. Even with «great» insurance in the US, there are all these edge cases and loopholes, stuff they will not cover. Where I live I never have to worry about these things, I do not even have to put aside money for rainy days (though I do, just because I make more than I spend).

burntoutfire 6y ago
In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom. The system is constructed so that you give your whole life to it in return for the security and comfort. Whereas in US, you can save enough to escape the system before you're old. From what I'm reading, even just regular engineers (not software) in the US often retire at 55 or 58, as they have saved enough by then. Compare that to the retirement age of 65-69 through most of Western Europe.
- erikbye 6y ago
  While that is true to an extent, I think you have to factor in (as far as quality of life goes) the amount of living people do in Europe before they retire. Many work only 37,5 hour weeks, and they have yearly five weeks paid holiday. And statistics like millionaires per capita show that it is definitely possible to achieve financial freedom in Europe, too. Though US is ahead, except for Switzerland, of course.
- GordonS 6y ago
  > In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom That's not true. I'm almost 40, and excluding pensions and capital tied up in my home, I currently have around £500,000 in savings. This wasn't particularly difficult to achieve on a software engineer salary in Scotland; we've travelled the globe for several years, have a nice house, 2 cars etc. We absolutely plan on retiring at around 50 at latest. Now with 20 years' experience I make €65k/y from my day job as a software architect/tech lead/lead dev (working 30h in a 4-day week). My wife and I also run a B2B micro-ISV that's made around €100k/y for the past few years (it was a slow climb to that figure over 10 years). So, we have a household income of around €165k (~$200k) - certainly more than most in the UK, yet nowhere near what I could make in SV on my own - and still certainly enough money that we hardly need to think about it, and with considered financial planning we can easily retire early. I'd far prefer to live in Europe than the US - I work way less hours, I get way more vacation days, our healthcare system won't bankrupt us (unfortunately I know firsthand it's far from perfect, but it's definitely still a boon for society), losing my job at any point in my career wouldn't have me out on the street, I don't need to especially fear the police, and (in general) people have a progressive attitude that serves to benefit all of society.
  - wolco2 6y ago
    Your B2B makes most twice as much as your daily salary. Would it make sense to quit your day job and invest your time in the B2B?
    - GordonS 6y ago
      It's not quite as easy a decision as it looks, as the job has a great pension (they put in 2x what I do), and the B2B is very reliant on a very small number of customers. But, still, yes - 2021 is finally going to be the year where I quit to focus on the business!
  - pc86 6y ago
    By your own statements isn't this an outlier? You're only in the position you're in because you own a business and have a pension where your employer is contributing 2/3 of the value. How much of that 500k EUR savings is from the business revenue? Wouldn't it be a more appropriate comparison to look at someone with an "average" pension (whatever that may be for Scotland) and no business revenue?

NicoJuicy 6y ago

I'm not sure if you take work/life balance into respect. You can have all the money of the world, but if you're only enjoying it at >60 years it's too late.

burntoutfire 6y ago
[ deleted my original reply - sorry I thought you were replying to another one of my posts ] True, you probably work harder and are more stressed in the US, but at least you have an option to retire early there on your savings. In the EU, I suspect most developers have very little savings and plan to just work until old age and state pension kicks in.
- NicoJuicy 6y ago
  Where I live, we are record savers ( Belgium). Everyone can go on pension at 56 ( much lower pension though) and can have a break for multiple years if they want, during their active career, that's not possible in the US. I have 1 year to go for being debt free ( included buying a house) at 32 age. I also thought it was US citizens that didn't save money? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/3433488/5280965/KS-SF-09-029-EN.PDF/69f10fe1-9252-423e-bd06-703bc6c8bbd1&ved=2ahUKEwi8spf8ud3tAhVKzRoKHa3cAt4QFjAAegQIARAB&usg=AOvVaw3U8NQYZyWU67L645mht269 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/... Even then, Europe catched up with productivity and some even doubled it vs. the US ( quoting : https://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/interview/mit-professor-challenges-perceptions-of-us-vs-eu-productivity/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/innovation-industry/intervi... ) > Hours worked does not mean more productive.
  - burntoutfire 6y ago
    I once got a contract offer from Belgium and checked your taxes. They are something like 55% for anything over 60k EUR per year? It means that, even if you get a high paying job, literally most of the money gets taken away. Seem rather hard to save significant amounts in such conditions.