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> I am consistently skeptical about outrageous claims. You have not presented a case for this particular claim to be regarded as outrageous. Unless you do, the

> I am consistently skeptical about outrageous claims. You have not presented a case for this particular claim to be regarded as outrageous. Unless you do, then your attitude to such claims is beside the point here.

the_af 6y ago
I believe that "people in border villages go up in mountain caves during the winter, and basically lie down there, starving and dying" to be a horror story, with some of the markings of an exaggeration. Does it make it automatically untrue? No. Do I believe many North Koreans live in really harsh conditions? Yes. But this particular tale does seem too horrific to believe without some sort of confirmation beyond hearsay. All it lacks is some cannibalism to make it the perfect horror story about North Korea.
- mannykannot 6y ago
  > All it lacks is some cannibalism... If you could have resisted the temptation to embellish, you would have made a quite reasonable point - though seeking collective shelter in caves in a harsh winter does not seem too far-fetched to me. It's not like humanity has no history of doing this! While famine is thankfully no longer a part of many peoples' experience, it has been for most of humanity's existence and still is for some. As for ideological motivation, this anecdote is being presented in the context of an anthropological claim about early human behavior, not about North Korea or communism. I tend to trust OP's judgment as to whether he was being strung along by the driver for ideological reasons.
- julianmarq 6y ago
  "Some people living under an oppressive regime starving and dying during the winter" is hardly outrageous. It's been true pretty much as long as human civilizations have been a thing. For some, even the winter part has been optional. So I'm confused about the part you don't believe, is it that they went up to the mountains to do it?
  - yorwba 6y ago
    Also the part where they keep lying there starving and dying, but by springtime the survivors can be observed lying in the sun. And the story makes it sound like a yearly occurrence. Either the starvation wasn't quite as deadly, or new people kept moving to that strip of land, only to end up dying in winter.
    - julianmarq 6y ago
      But the comment I replied to said this: > "people in border villages go up in mountain caves during the winter, and basically lie down there, starving and dying" to be a horror story It didn't include all the other things you mentioned. Only the part in quotes seemed to be enough for GP to deem it as a suspect horror story.
      - the_af 6y ago
        But it's the whole story and its trappings what matters. Basically what yorwba said: that this is a cyclic, almost ritual yearly dying that wouldn't be out of place in a horror movie, with the villagers resignedly going up the mountain to a cave to lie down and die, but that somehow there are enough survivors when winter ends, seen "lying in the sun". I didn't think it was necessary to spell everything out, but the whole story seems like a horror story. Needless to say, there's nothing unusual or unbelievable about people dying of starvation.
        mannykannot 6y ago
        > ...almost ritual yearly dying... Now you are depending on an absurdly literal reading of the tale to exaggerate its implausibility. It is a well-established fact that North Korea suffered several years of famine in the mid 90s, with at least 1/4 million fatalities and probably much higher, arising from a combination of the loss of economic support from the former USSR, El Niño and a kleptocratic bureaucracy. In such circumstances, it would not be that implausible if some peasants reverted to the winter survival techniques used by millenia of nomads and subsistence farmers. As for lying in the sun: if you are cold, famished, and have exhausted all the new-grown food that the spring has produced so far, then perhaps it is the best you can do.

the_af 6y ago

I believe that "people in border villages go up in mountain caves during the winter, and basically lie down there, starving and dying" to be a horror story, with some of the markings of an exaggeration. Does it make it automatically untrue? No. Do I believe many North Koreans live in really harsh conditions? Yes. But this particular tale does seem too horrific to believe without some sort of confirmation beyond hearsay. All it lacks is some cannibalism to make it the perfect horror story about North Korea.

mannykannot 6y ago
> All it lacks is some cannibalism... If you could have resisted the temptation to embellish, you would have made a quite reasonable point - though seeking collective shelter in caves in a harsh winter does not seem too far-fetched to me. It's not like humanity has no history of doing this! While famine is thankfully no longer a part of many peoples' experience, it has been for most of humanity's existence and still is for some. As for ideological motivation, this anecdote is being presented in the context of an anthropological claim about early human behavior, not about North Korea or communism. I tend to trust OP's judgment as to whether he was being strung along by the driver for ideological reasons.
julianmarq 6y ago
"Some people living under an oppressive regime starving and dying during the winter" is hardly outrageous. It's been true pretty much as long as human civilizations have been a thing. For some, even the winter part has been optional. So I'm confused about the part you don't believe, is it that they went up to the mountains to do it?
- yorwba 6y ago
  Also the part where they keep lying there starving and dying, but by springtime the survivors can be observed lying in the sun. And the story makes it sound like a yearly occurrence. Either the starvation wasn't quite as deadly, or new people kept moving to that strip of land, only to end up dying in winter.
  - julianmarq 6y ago
    But the comment I replied to said this: > "people in border villages go up in mountain caves during the winter, and basically lie down there, starving and dying" to be a horror story It didn't include all the other things you mentioned. Only the part in quotes seemed to be enough for GP to deem it as a suspect horror story.
    - the_af 6y ago
      But it's the whole story and its trappings what matters. Basically what yorwba said: that this is a cyclic, almost ritual yearly dying that wouldn't be out of place in a horror movie, with the villagers resignedly going up the mountain to a cave to lie down and die, but that somehow there are enough survivors when winter ends, seen "lying in the sun". I didn't think it was necessary to spell everything out, but the whole story seems like a horror story. Needless to say, there's nothing unusual or unbelievable about people dying of starvation.
      - mannykannot 6y ago
        > ...almost ritual yearly dying... Now you are depending on an absurdly literal reading of the tale to exaggerate its implausibility. It is a well-established fact that North Korea suffered several years of famine in the mid 90s, with at least 1/4 million fatalities and probably much higher, arising from a combination of the loss of economic support from the former USSR, El Niño and a kleptocratic bureaucracy. In such circumstances, it would not be that implausible if some peasants reverted to the winter survival techniques used by millenia of nomads and subsistence farmers. As for lying in the sun: if you are cold, famished, and have exhausted all the new-grown food that the spring has produced so far, then perhaps it is the best you can do.