6 ms·

It isn't less. The quality of life in Europe, the northern countries like Germany and the Netherlands, let alone Sweden, Norway is far higher than that in the U

It isn't less. The quality of life in Europe, the northern countries like Germany and the Netherlands, let alone Sweden, Norway is far higher than that in the US. This comes at a cost, but it is up to you to determine whether it is worth it. Don't get me wrong, the US is great and there is probably a lot of room for nuance in what I am saying here and I am most likely wrong. So take this with a grain of salt: Things that seem better in Europe (most developed countries in Europe at least): universal health care, better privacy protections, better political situation (seeing as the US is a flawed democracy [1]), and many other quality of life things [2]. You could argue that if you are rich, these things touch you way less in the US, which is true. But I also like not having to drive through poverty on my way to drop off my kids somewhere. I also enjoy knowing that where I live people don't end up in the streets due to getting some illness because of fictionally high health care costs. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index 2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

pc86 6y ago
Not to nitpick but even taking that democracy index at face value, the US is .05 from the same category as all those countries you mention. It's not nearly as stark a comparison as you seem to be implying.
- GordonS 6y ago
  As a European, I would say the US is very different from Europe. Yes, they are similar in economic terms, but the social attitudes, economic attitudes and worldview feel starkly different. Of course the US is big place, and this varies among states, but still.
  - burntoutfire 6y ago
    That may be the case, but as a software dev in the US, you're actually the beneficiary (via your very high salary) of the dog-eat-dog market economics that dominate the US. Whereas in Europe, as a developer you're just expected to be content with a mediocre salary, like everybody else. The only escape out of it (in Europe) seems to be the contracting market for senior people, where the rates are on par with US non-FAANG salaries.
    - erikbye 6y ago
      The difference here is that if you lose your job in European countries with great social security, you still have a salary you get by fine on. And hospital stays do not bankrupt you, or even make a dent. Even with «great» insurance in the US, there are all these edge cases and loopholes, stuff they will not cover. Where I live I never have to worry about these things, I do not even have to put aside money for rainy days (though I do, just because I make more than I spend).
      - burntoutfire 6y ago
        In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom. The system is constructed so that you give your whole life to it in return for the security and comfort. Whereas in US, you can save enough to escape the system before you're old. From what I'm reading, even just regular engineers (not software) in the US often retire at 55 or 58, as they have saved enough by then. Compare that to the retirement age of 65-69 through most of Western Europe.
        erikbye 6y ago
        While that is true to an extent, I think you have to factor in (as far as quality of life goes) the amount of living people do in Europe before they retire. Many work only 37,5 hour weeks, and they have yearly five weeks paid holiday. And statistics like millionaires per capita show that it is definitely possible to achieve financial freedom in Europe, too. Though US is ahead, except for Switzerland, of course.
        GordonS 6y ago
        > In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom That's not true. I'm almost 40, and excluding pensions and capital tied up in my home, I currently have around £500,000 in savings. This wasn't particularly difficult to achieve on a software engineer salary in Scotland; we've travelled the globe for several years, have a nice house, 2 cars etc. We absolutely plan on retiring at around 50 at latest. Now with 20 years' experience I make €65k/y from my day job as a software architect/tech lead/lead dev (working 30h in a 4-day week). My wife and I also run a B2B micro-ISV that's made around €100k/y for the past few years (it was a slow climb to that figure over 10 years). So, we have a household income of around €165k (~$200k) - certainly more than most in the UK, yet nowhere near what I could make in SV on my own - and still certainly enough money that we hardly need to think about it, and with considered financial planning we can easily retire early. I'd far prefer to live in Europe than the US - I work way less hours, I get way more vacation days, our healthcare system won't bankrupt us (unfortunately I know firsthand it's far from perfect, but it's definitely still a boon for society), losing my job at any point in my career wouldn't have me out on the street, I don't need to especially fear the police, and (in general) people have a progressive attitude that serves to benefit all of society.
- aussiegreenie 6y ago
  As a person who travels (or use to??) yes it is. Even the best parts of American (I owned a condo in Snowbird) are demonstrable worse than most of Northern Europe. It is everything from the schools, food and health. America is still a place of personal reinvention but not of social capital. In Norway, every single person is a local currency millionaire. Every man,woman and child has wealth worth over USD 250,000 due to the Oil Fund. Sweden has more billionaire per capita than America. The main difference is time. Time for life and time culture.
  - wolco2 6y ago
    How much are people worth in Sweden, Finland and Denmark?
  - pc86 6y ago
    How does a Norwegian cash out their piece of the fund? Can you get a loan and use your fund allocation as collateral? If not, it's not really their money.
EdwinLarkin 6y ago
None of those are useful to you when you are young and driven by ambitions. These perks are nice when you are old or have a family.
- acdha 6y ago
  That’s a pretty sweeping dismissal: many millions of people need healthcare even when young, and it’s not having a family is something you start in your 50s. Having a more democratic political system is also important when you’re young since you’ll have many decades to live with the impact of decisions about things like climate change or racking up debt irresponsibly.
- user568439 6y ago
  That’s the whole point. I, as a young and healthy European, prefer to earn half or less than I would make in the USA, but live in a society where almost nobody is left behind. The benefits of living in a place where you earn enough to have a decent live even with the minimum wage, are above my personal profit to me.
  - EdwinLarkin 6y ago
    I am a young not so healthy European and would very much prefer a better wage than these perks.
- halilc 6y ago
  If one is ambitious I would advise to run away from Europe.
lemoncurd 6y ago
cap and cope

pc86 6y ago

Not to nitpick but even taking that democracy index at face value, the US is .05 from the same category as all those countries you mention. It's not nearly as stark a comparison as you seem to be implying.

GordonS 6y ago
As a European, I would say the US is very different from Europe. Yes, they are similar in economic terms, but the social attitudes, economic attitudes and worldview feel starkly different. Of course the US is big place, and this varies among states, but still.
- burntoutfire 6y ago
  That may be the case, but as a software dev in the US, you're actually the beneficiary (via your very high salary) of the dog-eat-dog market economics that dominate the US. Whereas in Europe, as a developer you're just expected to be content with a mediocre salary, like everybody else. The only escape out of it (in Europe) seems to be the contracting market for senior people, where the rates are on par with US non-FAANG salaries.
  - erikbye 6y ago
    The difference here is that if you lose your job in European countries with great social security, you still have a salary you get by fine on. And hospital stays do not bankrupt you, or even make a dent. Even with «great» insurance in the US, there are all these edge cases and loopholes, stuff they will not cover. Where I live I never have to worry about these things, I do not even have to put aside money for rainy days (though I do, just because I make more than I spend).
    - burntoutfire 6y ago
      In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom. The system is constructed so that you give your whole life to it in return for the security and comfort. Whereas in US, you can save enough to escape the system before you're old. From what I'm reading, even just regular engineers (not software) in the US often retire at 55 or 58, as they have saved enough by then. Compare that to the retirement age of 65-69 through most of Western Europe.
      - erikbye 6y ago
        While that is true to an extent, I think you have to factor in (as far as quality of life goes) the amount of living people do in Europe before they retire. Many work only 37,5 hour weeks, and they have yearly five weeks paid holiday. And statistics like millionaires per capita show that it is definitely possible to achieve financial freedom in Europe, too. Though US is ahead, except for Switzerland, of course.
      - GordonS 6y ago
        > In Europe you get security + enough money to life comfortably, but not really enough to accumulate any capital and gain financial freedom That's not true. I'm almost 40, and excluding pensions and capital tied up in my home, I currently have around £500,000 in savings. This wasn't particularly difficult to achieve on a software engineer salary in Scotland; we've travelled the globe for several years, have a nice house, 2 cars etc. We absolutely plan on retiring at around 50 at latest. Now with 20 years' experience I make €65k/y from my day job as a software architect/tech lead/lead dev (working 30h in a 4-day week). My wife and I also run a B2B micro-ISV that's made around €100k/y for the past few years (it was a slow climb to that figure over 10 years). So, we have a household income of around €165k (~$200k) - certainly more than most in the UK, yet nowhere near what I could make in SV on my own - and still certainly enough money that we hardly need to think about it, and with considered financial planning we can easily retire early. I'd far prefer to live in Europe than the US - I work way less hours, I get way more vacation days, our healthcare system won't bankrupt us (unfortunately I know firsthand it's far from perfect, but it's definitely still a boon for society), losing my job at any point in my career wouldn't have me out on the street, I don't need to especially fear the police, and (in general) people have a progressive attitude that serves to benefit all of society.
aussiegreenie 6y ago
As a person who travels (or use to??) yes it is. Even the best parts of American (I owned a condo in Snowbird) are demonstrable worse than most of Northern Europe. It is everything from the schools, food and health. America is still a place of personal reinvention but not of social capital. In Norway, every single person is a local currency millionaire. Every man,woman and child has wealth worth over USD 250,000 due to the Oil Fund. Sweden has more billionaire per capita than America. The main difference is time. Time for life and time culture.
- wolco2 6y ago
  How much are people worth in Sweden, Finland and Denmark?
- pc86 6y ago
  How does a Norwegian cash out their piece of the fund? Can you get a loan and use your fund allocation as collateral? If not, it's not really their money.

EdwinLarkin 6y ago

None of those are useful to you when you are young and driven by ambitions. These perks are nice when you are old or have a family.

acdha 6y ago
That’s a pretty sweeping dismissal: many millions of people need healthcare even when young, and it’s not having a family is something you start in your 50s. Having a more democratic political system is also important when you’re young since you’ll have many decades to live with the impact of decisions about things like climate change or racking up debt irresponsibly.
user568439 6y ago
That’s the whole point. I, as a young and healthy European, prefer to earn half or less than I would make in the USA, but live in a society where almost nobody is left behind. The benefits of living in a place where you earn enough to have a decent live even with the minimum wage, are above my personal profit to me.
- EdwinLarkin 6y ago
  I am a young not so healthy European and would very much prefer a better wage than these perks.
halilc 6y ago
If one is ambitious I would advise to run away from Europe.

lemoncurd 6y ago

cap and cope